Whats up with my Dojo?

[Ueshirokarate]

Ueshirokarate, i have not spoken to my Sensei about any of this. earlier when i first came here, i did tell him that i'm more interested in Mixed Martial Arts. He offered me 1 on 1 fast-paced Karate classes (30 minutes for 40 dollars) and he said its more like a kickboxing class if i'm interested. i definetly do not have enough money for that. Also, someone told me to look at the seniors and look at their skill level, and that iwll tell me if the training i'm doing will actually pay off. Yes, they are all very good at what we do in class. But the problem is they all have a backgorund in something.

one, has a blackbelt and trained for years in Shotokan Karate and Japanese Judo. he's very good. another had a background in Boxing and Wrestling, and is also a member of the SWAT team in our area. even both of the main Sensei's have a background in something else. one trained for years in Kenpo/kempo Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Japanese Judo. another is a master in too many different martial arts that i can even remember. i know he's a master in Kenpo/Kempo, Bugei, Shorin-Ryu Karate, Escrima, Tai Chi, Aiki Jiu Jitsu, Iiado, etc. everyone who is at a high skill level has had previous training in other martial arts, or even still trains in other martial arts. i dont have the money to drive out to Matt Serra's gym more than once every 2 weeks, or sometimes only once a month. I do however, consider myself very lucky to be training where i'm trianing. i'm susupicious about their teaching methods, but i do trust both of them with my life.

My suggestion is to bravely step up and speak to your Sensei. I do not know him, but I do know the Matsubayashi method of training, which is a very heavy emphasis on kata, with some pre-arranged fighting drills, bunkai, etc. The system's founder Shoshin Nagamine greatly frowned upon tournament fighting. That said, Matsubayashi training has proved itself through competitors such as Parker Shelton and Bob Yarnell, who were both national champions and the latter was a Black Belt Magazine instructor of the year. As I mentioned earlier, these guys were competitive with Chuck Norris and other national fighters of their day. The system moved far away from tournament competitions in the late 70's and has not really ever returned to it, with the instructors preferring to follow Shoshin Nagamine's wishes.

That does not mean you can't attend a school and work diligently at learning karate. All true Matsubayashi schools I have come across do an excellent job at training the student's body to move with karate techniques naturally without thought and react to an opponents actions. Once you get to the latter stage of San Kyu level, you will have a solid foundation within you. You start to really advance in your skills above this level and if you are interested in really fighting, you can use your skills to develop fighting tactics (i.e. putting series of moves together to fight with). You will need a like trained and minded partner to work things out with. You're 16 and have plenty of time to do this. A school like yours will really give you a very solid foundation in the fighting arts, if you are patient with it.

I myself have about seven years of formal class training in Matsubayashi and now have both some judo and bjj training. There is no denying that the traditional method is highly effective in many, many ways. Really the only issue I have with traditional Matsubayashi training is the fact that the grappling aspects in our katas is often ignored or under-served. Therefore, I do believe that it should be supplemented with judo, bjj or a similar style where you train throws and ground work. On Okinawa, many practitioners have experience in some form of grappling. This is probably why grappling in kata is not focused upon. Even Shoshin Nagamine was a black belt in judo. That said, from a fighting standpoint, I would much rather strike a guy and be done with it, than have to bring him to the ground and wrestle (especially on concrete).

At the end of the day, you must ask yourself what you truly seek. To say your interest is MMA is a bit pie in the sky. Are you looking to learn both stand up and ground fighting, are you looking to eventually compete in the UFC, or something in between. First define what it is you are actually looking for and when you do this speak with your sensei. Also be realistic with your time frame. Unless you are training full time, it is going to take you far more than six months to learn to fight effectively.

[Dobbersky]

Ueshirokarate-san

Solid Post!!!

[scohen.mma]

Ueshirokarate, thankyou for the advice. and i think that my Sensei and you have both realized that Matsubayashi doesnt do too much focus on the grappling aspect of martial arts at all, which is why he also has Japanese Judo classes that are at a more fast pace.

DOBBERSKY, I love that idea of yours! unfortunately, my father and I have already turned our garage into a gym (weights, pull up bars, dumbells, etc.). I am in very good shape, and i like to challenge myself. I guess thats why i soemtimes get impatient with the Kata's, because although i use as much effort as i can put into them, i never really find myself out of breath or anything like that. We do have another room in the house, but its really in the house and we live with my Grandma who gets really mad at loud noises. That being said, me kicking teh bag and slamming the grappling dummy or anything like that would probably make her mad 99% of the day.

I really want to thank everyone for all this great advice even after the way i acted before.

I also heard a quote from Bruce Lee earlier. "If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend."

What do you think he meant by "water can flow or it can crash." what message was he trying to send us?

[Dobbersky]

Ueshirokarate, thankyou for the advice. and i think that my Sensei and you have both realized that Matsubayashi doesnt do too much focus on the grappling aspect of martial arts at all, which is why he also has Japanese Judo classes that are at a more fast pace.

DOBBERSKY, I love that idea of yours! ...........

I really want to thank everyone for all this great advice even after the way i acted before.

I also heard a quote from Bruce Lee earlier. "If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend."

What do you think he meant by "water can flow or it can crash." what message was he trying to send us?

Scohen,

Lol, don't worry about it I have Gi's older than you. And sometimes being "older" I forget what it was like to be young too.

If you have a good Phys Ed dept at your school, see if you can spend time in the Sports hall on the Mat with the SlamMans when your "wrestling team" isn't using them

Regards the Water analogy, its about reacting to situations, if you are soft and adaptable you will fit into the situation you're in without any obsticles. with regards to the "water can flow or it can crash" again this is how one reacts to situations, if one flows or moves with the current, one can adapt and pass through it without concequence, but if one crashes, one "faces up" to the situation thus causing friction and with all reactions basic physics always states that with every action there is an opposite an equal reaction

OSU!!! - Osu is a combination of the words: Oshi which means "Push", and Shinobu whihch means "to Endure". It means patience, determination, appreciation, respect and perseverance.

Kyokushin training is very demanding. You push yourself until you think you've reached your limit. First your body wants to stop, but your mind keeps pushing you. Then your mind wants to stop, but your spirit keeps you going. You endure the pain. You persevere. That is Osu.

Your kata training -if you do this with every muscle in your body tense and very slowly, breathing in and out in conjunction with your movements I guarantee that you will be sweating buckets if you do it correctly (you'll have to do it a few times though)

[Ueshirokarate]

Ueshirokarate, thankyou for the advice. and i think that my Sensei and you have both realized that Matsubayashi doesnt do too much focus on the grappling aspect of martial arts at all, which is why he also has Japanese Judo classes that are at a more fast pace.

DOBBERSKY, I love that idea of yours! unfortunately, my father and I have already turned our garage into a gym (weights, pull up bars, dumbells, etc.). I am in very good shape, and i like to challenge myself. I guess thats why i soemtimes get impatient with the Kata's, because although i use as much effort as i can put into them, i never really find myself out of breath or anything like that. We do have another room in the house, but its really in the house and we live with my Grandma who gets really mad at loud noises. That being said, me kicking teh bag and slamming the grappling dummy or anything like that would probably make her mad 99% of the day.

I really want to thank everyone for all this great advice even after the way i acted before.

I also heard a quote from Bruce Lee earlier. "If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend."

What do you think he meant by "water can flow or it can crash." what message was he trying to send us?

You should realize that mixing "grappling" and "striking is nothing new (despite the modern hype around "MMA"). Truth is that karate before the early 1900 had lots of grappling in it and Judo has striking within the style and came from Japanese Ju Jitsu which is chock full of both. By the way, Parker Shelton trained judo and matsubayashi concurrently starting in the early 1960s and still runs a school teaching both. He is an amazing martial artist, even today.

[Kuma]

Ueshirokarate, i have not spoken to my Sensei about any of this. earlier when i first came here, i did tell him that i'm more interested in Mixed Martial Arts. He offered me 1 on 1 fast-paced Karate classes (30 minutes for 40 dollars) and he said its more like a kickboxing class if i'm interested. i definetly do not have enough money for that. Also, someone told me to look at the seniors and look at their skill level, and that iwll tell me if the training i'm doing will actually pay off. Yes, they are all very good at what we do in class. But the problem is they all have a backgorund in something.

one, has a blackbelt and trained for years in Shotokan Karate and Japanese Judo. he's very good. another had a background in Boxing and Wrestling, and is also a member of the SWAT team in our area. even both of the main Sensei's have a background in something else. one trained for years in Kenpo/kempo Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Japanese Judo. another is a master in too many different martial arts that i can even remember. i know he's a master in Kenpo/Kempo, Bugei, Shorin-Ryu Karate, Escrima, Tai Chi, Aiki Jiu Jitsu, Iiado, etc. everyone who is at a high skill level has had previous training in other martial arts, or even still trains in other martial arts. i dont have the money to drive out to Matt Serra's gym more than once every 2 weeks, or sometimes only once a month. I do however, consider myself very lucky to be training where i'm trianing. i'm susupicious about their teaching methods, but i do trust both of them with my life.

If many off them have previous experience in other arts yet choose to train at that dojo, I'd say that's a good thing, wouldn't you? Obviously they see some merit to what they are doing then.

[bushido_man96]

Is it bad that the school teaches tehir students like this? Should i just stay and continue to learn the Kata's because theres secret self defense techniques behind them? i miss Mixed Martial Arts, but i do have a passion that i've developed through Karate. I love the spirituality, the history, and the Kata technique, but i really honestly want to learn to how to defend myself and how to fight.

If i do choose to leave, can someone reccomend me a good Karate dojo or MMA place that is near Ridge on Long Island in New York? i'm in a very tricky situation, and i really need some help. thankyou all!

All schools will teach differently. If your instructor seems to be a kata only guy, then you may want to find a different school. If he is doing new things, see if he sticks with them, and then make your choice.

As for "secrets in katas..." I don't buy into that. The only reason there are "secrets" there is because he either doesn't realize the applications, or just doesn't teach them. And its fine if he doesn't know them. Not all styles or instructors have that knowledge.

In the end, where you train and how you train is entirely up to you. If you are enjoying the training you are getting now, then why not stick with it? If your sole reason to train is to be an effective fighter, and you are not gaining the necessary skill set in training, then search out a different school. Either way, it is your choice.

[Ueshirokarate]

All schools will teach differently. If your instructor seems to be a kata only guy, then you may want to find a different school. If he is doing new things, see if he sticks with them, and then make your choice.

As for "secrets in katas..." I don't buy into that. The only reason there are "secrets" there is because he either doesn't realize the applications, or just doesn't teach them. And its fine if he doesn't know them. Not all styles or instructors have that knowledge.

In the end, where you train and how you train is entirely up to you. If you are enjoying the training you are getting now, then why not stick with it? If your sole reason to train is to be an effective fighter, and you are not gaining the necessary skill set in training, then search out a different school. Either way, it is your choice.

Traditionally, the more deadly applications of kata technique have been reserved for higher rank students. There were many things I did not learn and was not exposed to, until I was Ni-Kyu rank. You may or may not agree or believe me about this more conservative aspect of traditional Okinawan karate, but that is the way it is in many such schools. There is babysan applications in karate kata which are on the surface and then there are the real applications of karate kata and a whole bunch of uses for the movements in between.

You must understand the history behind Okinawa to understand why techniques can be such a mystery to so many practitioners. For the most part, most karate throughout the world is intermediate level karate at best. It was spread by the soldiers stationed in Okinawa after the war. Okinawans were desperate for money and found karate was a marketable commodity, so they began to teach it to these guys. They were also the foreign invaders to their land, so they didn't teach them everything, so thousands of half-informed GIs went back to their respective countries and opened dojos teaching babysan karate.

Additionally, it was tradition on Okinawa for only the most senior student of the style/system to know all the applications of the katas. So not even the instructors of these GIs knew everything. So while you may not "buy" hidden techniques, the reality is that there are many techniques that are just a complete mystery to many karate students for these reasons.

[tallgeese]

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if you're getting what you want out of training. There are a million reasons to train, and more than a few ways to train for each of these reasons. You have to honestly look at what you want, what you're getting, and how your school is prepping you to get there.

Adjust accordingly.

[Ueshirokarate]

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if you're getting what you want out of training. There are a million reasons to train, and more than a few ways to train for each of these reasons. You have to honestly look at what you want, what you're getting, and how your school is prepping you to get there.

Adjust accordingly.

Generally I would agree. However, sometimes you are getting exactly what you want (and sometimes much more than that) and you just don't know this while you are getting it. I remember a black belt many years ago explaining koshi (in a very advanced way). He was visiting and it was all very strange at the time, within the context of what other teachers in the dojo were teaching. Fortunately, I listened to him, as something clicked in the way he was teaching it at the time. I could have very easily dismissed what he was teaching and I almost did, as I could not relate it to my training goals until it clicked.

In other words, sometimes you don't know what you don't know.