Exlaining Ones Dan Degrees

[sensei8]

How do you explain the varying Dan degrees of YOUR CORE STYLE to a layperson?

~Do you try to explain each separate Dan degree?

~Do you try to explain Dan degrees in groups...[1-3, 4-5, 6-8, 9, 10]?

~How much better is a 3rd Dan over a 2nd Dan, for example, or an 8th Dan over a 6/7th Dan?

Sometimes, trying to explain the Dan degrees in a positive means is hard enough to explain it to other MAists of different core styles, and/or different dojo's, but can be pretty difficult to get a layperson to grasp the differences between Dan degrees.

Any thoughts?

[shadowspawn]

In our style, rank is determined simply by how active you are and how long you've been a member. It determines nothing more than seniority and isn't really a gauge of how good you are in kata, sparring, etc. In my former school though, rank was determined by how well you did in tournaments with prerequisites for everything from shodan and above regarding kata and kumite. IIRC, you must place (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in an open tournament for both kata and kumite at least once in order to advance passed godan (5th degree). It really depends on the school, but one thing that remains consistent from what I've seen is that those who are of higher rank generally have more experience in the style than those of a lower rank.

[Ueshirokarate]

Seems to me, that your average layperson just understands black. They don't understand that black just means you have some what mastered the basics and are really just starting your journey, if you will. Clearly the meaning of the dan ranks is very dependent on the system you train under. In some systems, Nidan and above are gained through politics or your perceived value by the higher ups, while in others they are dependent on more objective criteria. The best way for you to explain it, is based upon your individual system. You may wish to tell someone, that there is no objective standard to judge a Nidan in your system to a Yondan in another. You also may wish to tell them, that there are some schools that take two years or less to achieve black and some where it takes six to eight years.

They may not get this, but I believe the only one who can really judge the meaning of a rank is the person who holds it. Would you agree?

[Montana]

I explain that shodan is "mastery" of the basics and basic concepts of the system.

Nidan thru Rokudan (2nd - 6th) are consistent practrice and improvement thru training.

Anything above rokudan are honorary degrees bestowed thru time and diligent, continued practice and improvement in the arts.

[Dobbersky]

It also depends on the "times" between the grades, in some styles they have 16th Dans!!!!

From 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th etc are 5 years each as opposed to 6 years or 7 years etc.

I think in Kempo Styles there's no specific timescales between the grades

[tallgeese]

I don't really worry much about explaining Dan grades.

I am quick to point out when the subject comes up (which is rarely, I agree most people look as black as black) that, in the experiences I've had thru my core art, 3rd an up is more of instructional merit than anything else. 5th and up is more time in and honorary than anything. By that point, you've started to reach the point where you won't be regularly pounding with 18 year old killers as much as you did at one time.

I've never been quite so "basic mastery" focused for BB's. BB's should, in my opinion only, have more than a basic understanding of the art. They should understand the movements, theory, and principles of the art. Plus, they should be able to implement drills independently of another instructor to build these factors in others as well as completely understand the favored drills of the art. They should understand use of force laws in their area, and be able to articulate when they should escalate to a weapon and be proficient in the weapons of the style (in our case, knife, gun, and club). They should understand the basic (there I'll use the word now) care, maintenance, and use of a fire arm both automatic and revolver. And lastly, they should be able to not just recited all this but demonstrate it under induced stress of mock combat and reality based situational work. That, to me, is much more than a basic understanding. It's pretty deep stuff. And it should be.

It's part of the reason I really appreciate the BJJ ranking system. By purple, you've got the basics of your trade down. Brown and then black are ranks where you start to dig deep in the understanding and the finer points of the art. Every BJJ black belt I've ever met has had a very deep understanding of what they are doing.

But again, it's just perception. No one is saying that you've learned it all, in any art, by bb so maybe it's just semantics. But I prefer the perception that black belt is an advanced understanding of the art, not just the beginning.

I'm not talking about technical skill here. Technical aspects that work across testing and time are routinely the basics of any art. They are the go to movements that just work due to physiology, ect. I'm talking about the understanding of all the little factors that go into making them work. That's what needs to be deep and I like to see that depth in black belts.

[shadowspawn]

A black belt in our school is really just an "official" license to teach. There was a particular blue belt (3rd kyu in our school as we only have 5 kyus) who was thousands of miles away training others for 20 years isolated from the main dojo or any of its branches under our school's banner. When our shihan found out about this, he instantly promoted him to 3rd dan black belt (at the time a high rank since we only had 5 dans during that time). When it comes to reality, a black belt is just like any other trophy or souvenir: it only has as much value as you choose to give it.

[evergrey]

Back in the day, some 30-odd years ago, our Shihan told my Sensei that he never wanted to go above 3rd Dan. He said something like "up to 3rd Dan are the fighting ranks. Above that, it's all politics. I'm a fighter. I want to train, and fight. I hate politics."

Now he's a 7th dan, though I've heard he went kicking and screaming through all those ranks, heh.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I know it involves testing and years spent and maybe teaching experience or what one has done to contribute. In my style it really differs wildly from organization to organization... and a lot of the old school people who trained under Mas Oyama have never tested after he passed, and didn't want rank under anyone else.

For me, as a 6th kyu (oh yeah, passed my ranking test, and got it today!) I sort of look at the stripes and categorize them in terms of how hard the kumite will be. In my mind see them like I do chili peppers on a Northern Chinese food menu.

1 pepper/stripe = pain.

2 peppers/stripes = more pain.

5 peppers = OH GOD IT HURTS

7 peppers = MAYBE IT WILL BE OVER FAST AND THEN THERE WILL BE A TUNNEL AND LIGHT.

I guess I'm just sort of practical-minded like that.

[ps1]

In BJJ it's easy. Every three years you are promoted to the next "dan." So a third degree in BJJ is someone who has been a black belt for a minimum of 9 years with no breaks in training. However, earning 7th degree (black/red belt) requires great contributions to the art as well as time in training.

[bushido_man96]

I've never been quite so "basic mastery" focused for BB's. BB's should, in my opinion only, have more than a basic understanding of the art. They should understand the movements, theory, and principles of the art. Plus, they should be able to implement drills independently of another instructor to build these factors in others as well as completely understand the favored drills of the art. They should understand use of force laws in their area, and be able to articulate when they should escalate to a weapon and be proficient in the weapons of the style (in our case, knife, gun, and club). They should understand the basic (there I'll use the word now) care, maintenance, and use of a fire arm both automatic and revolver. And lastly, they should be able to not just recited all this but demonstrate it under induced stress of mock combat and reality based situational work. That, to me, is much more than a basic understanding. It's pretty deep stuff. And it should be.

I really like this. A lot. Great explanation.

I usually use the time in grade example if the degrees question comes up. When asked, I usually try to shrug it off, anyways, and avoid discussing it.