The standard of karate exams

[Ueshirokarate]

What are the standards?

http://www.usjf.com/public/rank_requirement.pdf

I am sure they are pretty similar around the world. I view the world of judo as a completely different animal than that of karate. In the style of karate I practice, we don't really have tournaments/competitions, etc. The founder Shoshin Nagmine was vehemently opposed to them.

Thanks for posting this. Very helpful. With all this in mind, using tournament performances as a guage of rank, it can put a hamper on the rank one is capable of attaining. Should an inability to be competitive be a standard regarded in rank promotions?

I see Judo as more a sport/competition focused art, so it makes perfect sense for Judo. I think it would also make sense for a karate style that is a sport karate focused style. For traditional martial arts like Japanese Jujitsu and styles of karate like Matsubayashi where the focus is more perfecting technique and competing with oneself, ranking this way makes no sense.

[wagnerk]

...1. throughout your karate "career", did you ever fail a Dan exam?.

No

...2. did you ever fail a kyu exam?.

No

...3. do you know somebody who did?.

Yes, both Dan and Kyu grades.

[Thief]

Ok, so, what's the tournament standard to go by, then? Do you have to win to attain a certain rank? What does 2nd place get you?.

No, of course not. If winning was the criteria it would mean that we could only get our ranks only one person at the time, since there can only be one winner .

The idea is to show that you fare better than the lower ranks, and are equal or at comparable level with the ranks you aspire to. If you win matches that obviously proves it. If you lose but you still put up good fights (technically, physically, tactically, emotionally) that should do it as well. Same for kata, you don't necessarily have to win but participate in tournaments and present yourself well.

Let's play with this example a little bit. We use tournaments to ascertain rank. Obviously, wins is going to be the important issue here, so we won't concern ourselves something silly like losing. So, we establish that winning is what's important in determining if our rank is true.

(...) Proving yourself over and over again against regional competition will only take you so far, so you would have to consider national and interantional level competition to rank yourself higher than 1st dan.

I agree with you, and I do not advocate for setting clear rules. Chess, go, judo, etc ... are good examples for the principles of how ranking can be made meaningful and relevant, but their rules are not tranferable as is.

I agree with the post of DWx further below yours ... I guess that says exactly what I had in mind, particularly the sentence: "But maybe if the examiner or whoever was deciding the rank was looking at (...) how they're holding up against competitors of a similar skill level it my be a more valid way of ranking up." - that's exactly my point.

Now whether the tournaments should be local, national, international, etc .... that's hard to say. I guess it depends on the club / association and their scale of operation. My answer is that if your club does partcipate in competitions at any level, then they could make it a pre-requisite for their higher belts to compete if they want to go up in rank. Again, it should not be mandatory to win, but if you consistently weasel your way out of it then why would you deserve a black belt?

It's also the best way imo to keep the standard of the club/association high.

If the club is a McDojo that doesn't do any tournaments and is not associated with any major organization then forget it, but then getting a black belt from such a club is like getting a degree in 6 months from an unaccredited university, what does that show? Nothing imo.

So you see, I don't think that tournament competition is necessarily a good way to try to ascertain whether someone deserves their rank or not. Yes, my arguement here is a bit extreme, but once you open that can of worms, where do you stop it? I hope this clarifies the point I've been trying to make.

Sure, I agree with that. It's not necessarily, and in certain cases it's actually impossible. What I said may apply for most young, healthy, etc ... practioners, who have no excuse of avoiding competition. Older ones, for example, shall be judged by different criteria, basically everybody according to his own circumstances (as long as you don't relax the criteria too much).

What happens when you retire from tournaments, then? Notice how guys like George Foreman are always referred to as "former heavyweight champion?" If you stop competing, then you effectively stop your path to higher rank, and deem yourself a "former black belt.".

No, the title and rank are two different things. And as I said before, as you grow older at some point moving up the ranks is based on different criteria (we all know that, don't we).

[Thief]

With all this in mind, using tournament performances as a guage of rank, it can put a hamper on the rank one is capable of attaining.

Yep. But as I said above, "performance" in tournament is not necessarilty your win\loss record but rather the way you present yourself. Of course, this is a very, very grey zone, and here it comes down to the club/association and if they want to maintain their standards or not.

Only as an example, I could lay it out in the following way: say, you're a blue belt in your late teens or in your twenties. You start making 2 or 3 tournaments, can be small local ones, and get some competitional experience (regardless of if you win or lose) before going for brown belt exam. That should be good enough.

Now between brown and black you'd have to have some 2 years training time, meaning the chance to go to another 5 - 6 tournaments. By now you would be fighting black belts and fellow brown belts, and by the time you want to go your black belt your coach, as well as the other ones from your association (who would be the jury) would know you and have an idea of what your level is. They would make a judgement of whether they should let you take the exam or not.

If in those 6-7 tournaments you sucked at kumite, but were good in kata that's fine (or the other way around). If you sucked at both, then - yes - they may tell you to train harder in order to let you take the exam. So you keep training - at that age training means progress - until you can show some skill in competition first, before going for the exam.

Should an inability to be competitive be a standard regarded in rank promotions?

Depends for what reason. Age is a factor that changes the criteria. For older people skill and understanding of karate is more important than competitiveness. There may be other factors.

Eventually, if you are a trainer yourself and your students are doing well in competitions then obviously this is a good reason for you to be promoted even if you dont compete yourself.

As I said, it comes down to what extent your association wants to keep the standards high.

[Dobbersky]

Sorry, but I'm going to put a damper on this. I personally do not see the need in them!

Most people training do this as a hobby and have Work, Family and other commitments to contend with rather thatn having to write a few essays or do a written test etc. If you think about it how many of the Tested Black Belts actually stay with the club after they've tested? Not many comparing it to the number of 2nd and 3rd and 4th Dans there are left in most clubs. Most consider Black belt as the END of the journey not the begining!

[Ueshirokarate]

Sorry, but I'm going to put a damper on this. I personally do not see the need in them!

Most people training do this as a hobby and have Work, Family and other commitments to contend with rather thatn having to write a few essays or do a written test etc. If you think about it how many of the Tested Black Belts actually stay with the club after they've tested? Not many comparing it to the number of 2nd and 3rd and 4th Dans there are left in most clubs. Most consider Black belt as the END of the journey not the begining!

And that is sad. Black belt is just an acknowledgement that you have mastered the basic techniques. To me, when you reach black belt, you have built a house. Why would you spend all those years building a house and then walk away from it when it is done. I also find that the more I study martial arts, the less I feel I know. In our system, you are no where near done the journey. You still have the following katas to learn and master:

Rohai

Wanshu

Passai

Gojushiho

Chinto

Kusanku

Seems like the beginning of a much more challenging and exciting journey than the one through the kyu ranks.

[Dobbersky]

Sorry, but I'm going to put a damper on this. I personally do not see the need in them!

Most people training do this as a hobby and have Work, Family and other commitments to contend with rather thatn having to write a few essays or do a written test etc. If you think about it how many of the Tested Black Belts actually stay with the club after they've tested? Not many comparing it to the number of 2nd and 3rd and 4th Dans there are left in most clubs. Most consider Black belt as the END of the journey not the begining!

And that is sad. Black belt is just an acknowledgement that you have mastered the basic techniques. To me, when you reach black belt, you have built a house. Why would you spend all those years building a house and then walk away from it when it is done. I also find that the more I study martial arts, the less I feel I know. In our system, you are no where near done the journey. You still have the following katas to learn and master:

Rohai

Wanshu

Passai

Gojushiho

Chinto

Kusanku

Seems like the beginning of a much more challenging and exciting journey than the one through the kyu ranks.

Totally agree my friend, I always find the grading syllabus gets in the way of learning sometimes. I tell my 1st kyus that a Mudansha has to be told what to do but a Yudansha already knows what they need to do without being told by Sensei.

I find it in comparison to taking Driving lessons, you do all the training take all the tests get your licence then never sit behind the wheel of a car again - it just wouldn't happen!

To me the written tests are not required because it doesn't make the writter any more in tune with the martial art they are studying. I point my students to the Forums and if they want to use the time to create articles discuss the ethos of Bushido then I am happy for them too

[etali]

anyway, can you guys answer the following, honestly and to the best of your knowledge:

1. throughout your karate "career", did you ever fail a Dan exam?

2. did you ever fail a kyu exam?

3. do you know somebody who did?

And for instructors:

4. what is your pass/fail rate when you are giving exams? For colored belts and black belts?

1. I'm only 2nd Kyu so can't comment on Dan testing from my own experience.

2. In my system, Kyu tests have 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class passes. I got 1st class all the way up to 2nd Kyu, with the exception of the grading where I went for 5th Kyu - I got 2nd class there.

3. Kyu grades use the rating system - people aren't supposed to test until they're put forward, so it's rare anyone gets lower than a 3rd Class.

From the people I know who test for Dan gradings, most people fail 1st Dan the first time they go for it. I know one person who took 3 tries then passed. I gather there's someone in the organization I train with that is on their 6th try, and hasn't passed yet.

2nd Dan and above has a better pass rate (I guess if you don't think "I've finished now I have my black belt" and continue to train, you must be working pretty hard), but I can name one person who failed their 2nd dan recently.

I train Shukokai style karate.

[Ueshirokarate]

Sorry, but I'm going to put a damper on this. I personally do not see the need in them!

Most people training do this as a hobby and have Work, Family and other commitments to contend with rather thatn having to write a few essays or do a written test etc. If you think about it how many of the Tested Black Belts actually stay with the club after they've tested? Not many comparing it to the number of 2nd and 3rd and 4th Dans there are left in most clubs. Most consider Black belt as the END of the journey not the begining!

And that is sad. Black belt is just an acknowledgement that you have mastered the basic techniques. To me, when you reach black belt, you have built a house. Why would you spend all those years building a house and then walk away from it when it is done. I also find that the more I study martial arts, the less I feel I know. In our system, you are no where near done the journey. You still have the following katas to learn and master:

Rohai

Wanshu

Passai

Gojushiho

Chinto

Kusanku

Seems like the beginning of a much more challenging and exciting journey than the one through the kyu ranks.

Totally agree my friend, I always find the grading syllabus gets in the way of learning sometimes. I tell my 1st kyus that a Mudansha has to be told what to do but a Yudansha already knows what they need to do without being told by Sensei.

I find it in comparison to taking Driving lessons, you do all the training take all the tests get your licence then never sit behind the wheel of a car again - it just wouldn't happen!

To me the written tests are not required because it doesn't make the writter any more in tune with the martial art they are studying. I point my students to the Forums and if they want to use the time to create articles discuss the ethos of Bushido then I am happy for them too

I like that analogy. To me a black belt is a white belt who learned enough to train themselves and now have the discipline to do so. Yes, it is useful to have a higher rank critique them and fine tune things, but they, having enough of a foundation, should be able to watch a kata video (a good one obviously) and teach them-self the form with reasonable accuracy.

[Ozpunker]

I've seen a few people fail coloured belts. They were mostly kids or teenagers who just didn't put the effort in.

The day I graded for my Black Belt the 2 ladies grading for 1st Dan failed. During the belt ceremony (where we are handed our new belts from Shihan) They were given a "Probationary 1st Dan", which just meant they had to re-sit parts of their grading. One lady has since done this and the other has more work to do and is re attempting at the end of this month.