JBB; It Can Be A Problem

[sensei8]

Within the world of the martial arts, Junior Black Belts can be found in the many varying styles, without having to look too hard. I was one for 5 years, and I found it to be a very important part of my martial arts training.

Many students of all ages quit right after receiving their JBB/Shodan, to never shadow a dojo/dojang door ever again. I don't fault them for their decisions because they've their reason(s) and in that, I must respect them, and not allow my own personal feelings to interfere with my sensibility.

Discarding their martial arts training completely after JBB/Shodan is also their given right to do so. However, being a child Yudansha can be more problematic than as an adult, to say the least. Why?

When a child BB hasn't continued in any type of martial arts training after becoming an adult, and forgoing the martial arts across the board, and then has to use it [MA], and they can't because they've forgotten how to. Defeat on the dojo/tournament floor is one thing, but defeat on the streets can have traumatic consequences, imho.

Not just children, but adults as well, will change their interests, and that which was important to them at one time, is now no longer a priority over college/starting a career/raising a family/supporting a family, which I respect across the board.

Imho, forgetting something that had the positive potentiality to protect your family as well as yourself can be paramount to an airplane pilot forgetting how to fly the plane.

Continue training in the martial arts by all means, not for rank/title/platitudes; but for the sake of still being able to defend those who mean the most to you as well as yourself.

I welcome your thoughts!

[DWx]

When a child BB hasn't continued in any type of martial arts training after becoming an adult, and forgoing the martial arts across the board, and then has to use it [MA], and they can't because they've forgotten how to. Defeat on the dojo/tournament floor is one thing, but defeat on the streets can have traumatic consequences, imho.

I don't think this is problem specifically for JBBs. An adult can train for a few years, get the belt, then disappear. 5 years down the line they probably can't remember anything and won't have had any practice in it either. I've seen a few people who used to train "back in the day" who turn up to class expecting to be a blackbelt again but wouldn't last 2 seconds in a fight because they've forgotten it all.

TBH I would even say that JBBs might be in a better position when it comes to self defense. At least in our school it gets drilled into the kids that they should get free and run if confronted. That's probably going to stick with them even if they forget the techniques themselves. A lot of adult former BB probably would be like: "stand aside citizen, I'm a blackbelt" and then get the snot kicked out of them.

[evergrey]

OSU,

I do kind of wonder how many children are emotionally mature enough to have a black belt? Perhaps it is different in other dojos, but here, there are responsibilities that come with a black belt, as well as a certain amount of authority. I am not sure at what age they will test for black belts here... perhaps 16 or 17?

I am not sure if I will give them before 18. We'll see. I'm not sure if I'll be teaching kids at all, heh! There are certainly things in Kyokushin that kids should not do, because their bones and joints are not developed enough yet... but the development of the mind and the spirit are equally important.

I have heard about "black belt burnout" and the shodan drop-out rate. For some, the black belt is their ultimate goal, and following that, they feel adrift, lost, even depressed, or feel that they are done.

To combat this, straight off the Bat my Sensei told me that getting your black belt is like graduating from high school- you're ready to start seriously learning. You're ready for college. He also advised me to develop some short term goals AND some long term goals. My long term goals may well stretch out for the rest of my life... I think that helps. I hope it will help me avoid the burnout. I don't see myself NOT doing this though, as long as I am at all physically able...

OSU!

[Dobbersky]

OSU,

I have heard about "black belt burnout" and the shodan drop-out rate. For some, the black belt is their ultimate goal, and following that, they feel adrift, lost, even depressed, or feel that they are done.

OSU!

For me I compare it to a Championship Boxer journey, A Champ is not a Champ until they have susccessfully defended their Championship!!!

Therefore I advise New Blackbelts, they're not a full Black belt until they've got their 2nd Dan grade! It helps but I do see a lot of grades in many schools of many different arts having students "disappear" within a few weeks of getting their Blackbelts and Certificates

[sensei8]

When a child BB hasn't continued in any type of martial arts training after becoming an adult, and forgoing the martial arts across the board, and then has to use it [MA], and they can't because they've forgotten how to. Defeat on the dojo/tournament floor is one thing, but defeat on the streets can have traumatic consequences, imho.

I don't think this is problem specifically for JBBs. An adult can train for a few years, get the belt, then disappear. 5 years down the line they probably can't remember anything and won't have had any practice in it either. I've seen a few people who used to train "back in the day" who turn up to class expecting to be a blackbelt again but wouldn't last 2 seconds in a fight because they've forgotten it all.

TBH I would even say that JBBs might be in a better position when it comes to self defense. At least in our school it gets drilled into the kids that they should get free and run if confronted. That's probably going to stick with them even if they forget the techniques themselves. A lot of adult former BB probably would be like: "stand aside citizen, I'm a blackbelt" and then get the snot kicked out of them.

I understand and respect what you're saying.

When one looks at organizations similar to the ATA and Karate Kids, those organizational types are what I would consider the core of what happens to children in the martial arts. They join those types of organizations for the sole purpose of reaching BB, then they quite immediately right after their BB ceremony, and then they never practice any martial arts ever again, for whatever reason(s).

[DWx]

When a child BB hasn't continued in any type of martial arts training after becoming an adult, and forgoing the martial arts across the board, and then has to use it [MA], and they can't because they've forgotten how to. Defeat on the dojo/tournament floor is one thing, but defeat on the streets can have traumatic consequences, imho.

I don't think this is problem specifically for JBBs. An adult can train for a few years, get the belt, then disappear. 5 years down the line they probably can't remember anything and won't have had any practice in it either. I've seen a few people who used to train "back in the day" who turn up to class expecting to be a blackbelt again but wouldn't last 2 seconds in a fight because they've forgotten it all.

TBH I would even say that JBBs might be in a better position when it comes to self defense. At least in our school it gets drilled into the kids that they should get free and run if confronted. That's probably going to stick with them even if they forget the techniques themselves. A lot of adult former BB probably would be like: "stand aside citizen, I'm a blackbelt" and then get the snot kicked out of them.

I understand and respect what you're saying.

When one looks at organizations similar to the ATA and Karate Kids, those organizational types are what I would consider the core of what happens to children in the martial arts. They join those types of organizations for the sole purpose of reaching BB, then they quite immediately right after their BB ceremony, and then they never practice any martial arts ever again, for whatever reason(s).

I agree that there are reasons for not awarding JBBs but I don't agree that juniors are the only ones who want the blackbelt and then leave again and won't be able to defend themselves several years down the line. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your case.

...being a child Yudansha can be more problematic than as an adult, to say the least.

Maybe I don't understand but I just think that your argument can be equally applied to adult blackbelts. Its no more problematic than an adult doing the same thing and as far as self defense goes, it just brings them back down to the level of the normal untrained Joe Bloggs. Perhaps you could say that this is more common in kids because they burnout and get bored easier but the same could be said of plenty of adults too. It's not the JBB rank itself that causes the student to quit. No matter whether they are a child or an adult they can decide that they've achieved all they want and get bored with MAs. I don't see how awarding a JBB is going to make this a problem in kids. The teacher should be assessing whether the person is just in it for the belt, and then decide whether to promote them, regardless of their age.

Organizations that focus on the blackbelt as a goal (i.e. McDojos) may attract a lot of kids due to their marketing strategies and business plans but they'll also be pushing adults through to blackbelt at an equal rate. And if the issue here is their skills, well they most likely won't have any decent ability anyway even if they carried on training.

Like I said, maybe I've misinterpreted but I don't see how JBB is a problem here.

[sensei8]

When a child BB hasn't continued in any type of martial arts training after becoming an adult, and forgoing the martial arts across the board, and then has to use it [MA], and they can't because they've forgotten how to. Defeat on the dojo/tournament floor is one thing, but defeat on the streets can have traumatic consequences, imho.

I don't think this is problem specifically for JBBs. An adult can train for a few years, get the belt, then disappear. 5 years down the line they probably can't remember anything and won't have had any practice in it either. I've seen a few people who used to train "back in the day" who turn up to class expecting to be a blackbelt again but wouldn't last 2 seconds in a fight because they've forgotten it all.

TBH I would even say that JBBs might be in a better position when it comes to self defense. At least in our school it gets drilled into the kids that they should get free and run if confronted. That's probably going to stick with them even if they forget the techniques themselves. A lot of adult former BB probably would be like: "stand aside citizen, I'm a blackbelt" and then get the snot kicked out of them.

I understand and respect what you're saying.

When one looks at organizations similar to the ATA and Karate Kids, those organizational types are what I would consider the core of what happens to children in the martial arts. They join those types of organizations for the sole purpose of reaching BB, then they quite immediately right after their BB ceremony, and then they never practice any martial arts ever again, for whatever reason(s).

I agree that there are reasons for not awarding JBBs but I don't agree that juniors are the only ones who want the blackbelt and then leave again and won't be able to defend themselves several years down the line. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your case.

...being a child Yudansha can be more problematic than as an adult, to say the least.

Maybe I don't understand but I just think that your argument can be equally applied to adult blackbelts. Its no more problematic than an adult doing the same thing and as far as self defense goes, it just brings them back down to the level of the normal untrained Joe Bloggs. Perhaps you could say that this is more common in kids because they burnout and get bored easier but the same could be said of plenty of adults too. It's not the JBB rank itself that causes the student to quit. No matter whether they are a child or an adult they can decide that they've achieved all they want and get bored with MAs. I don't see how awarding a JBB is going to make this a problem in kids. The teacher should be assessing whether the person is just in it for the belt, and then decide whether to promote them, regardless of their age.

Organizations that focus on the blackbelt as a goal (i.e. McDojos) may attract a lot of kids due to their marketing strategies and business plans but they'll also be pushing adults through to blackbelt at an equal rate. And if the issue here is their skills, well they most likely won't have any decent ability anyway even if they carried on training.

Like I said, maybe I've misinterpreted but I don't see how JBB is a problem here.

In my OP, I did mention that it's problematic for BOTH adults AND children, however, I've used JBB's as the thread content/subject. That's why I mentioned the "Karate Kids" organization who only teaches children.

For JBB it's more problematic for kids/JBB due to parental control. A child can only control "interest", whereas, the parent(s)/guardian(s) control when the child goes to class and when the child can no longer attend any classes, whether it's before or after BB.

[ps1]

In the end, I suppose it depends on what you're looking for in a black belt. For me, I don't award a black belt unless I feel the student can actually be effective in a life and death situation. I have yet to meet the 10 year old who is able to truly take on an adult and overcome their strength. During seminars I prove it often. They try to kick the groin and punch me, but a good shove puts them on the ground, and then it's a matter of just manhandling the kid. This says nothing to his skill. I'm sure the kid is good at his system, but should not, in my opinion, be a black belt.

With an understanding of what I want my black belts to be able to accomplish, here's a list of why I will NEVER award a black belt to anyone under the age of 18.

1. Puberty. The body and mind go through dramatic changes during puberty. The biggest is the growth spurts. A 12yr old who was able to do jump spin kicks now finds it difficult to coordinate walking and running again. They must work through this and learn their coordination again. This process can take several years.

2. Body mass. Children are much smaller than adults. Even my beloved jiu-jitsu, with all it's levers, is hard pressed to find a techniques in which a child will have any mechanical advantage of a full grown adult. Their mass is much to small to allow strikes to have any real effect and their limb lengths are too short to make strong levers.

3. Maturity. No matter how mature a child may seem, they are quite egotistical. I was at a seminar where a young black belt (11 to 14 at the oldest) looked at Relson Gracie ( http://www.relsongracie.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=1&Itemid=58 ) and began speaking with, "We're both masters...". Now the child was not trying to be rude. But to allow a 14 year old kid to believe he's a master of anything can only lead to an inflated ego. I remember several kids in school who would tout being a black belt. I'm sure they didn't do that in classes, but their kids, they want to impress their friends. If you don't believe that, you're kidding yourself. In self defense, ego can get you killed.

Again, if all you want out of your JBB is to see good technique, some discipline, courtesy ect... Then, obviously, my reasons don't really apply. But, for me, it's about self protection first.

[bushido_man96]

I've seen both kids and adults quit after achieving their 1st dan. I think with kids, it has quite a bit to do with burnout. I think there is also the idea to the kids, and parents, that its the end, and nothing really to do afterwards. I can also see how remaining in one rank, like a JBB, for an extended time can some younger participants to lose motivation. Its important to make sure that the classes are kept fresh and that the students are always learning and growing.