Shotokan's Secret

[Hakutsuru]

I've been re-reading this work by Clayton titled, "Shotokan's Secret." In it he has a lot of negative things to write about Chotoku Kyan and writes that he's legacy was that of "an incredible figther" but he was "a bitter amateur."

What are your thoughts on Chotoku Kyan and "Shotokan's Secret" in general?

Thanks.

[MasterPain]

"an incredible fighter" and "a bitter amateur."

How does that work?

[Hakutsuru]

"an incredible fighter" and "a bitter amateur."

How does that work?

The book is filled with contradictions like that. He also stated that Kyan made plenty of changes to the (Shotokan esq) kata, then states that Kyan returned to the kata he was originally taught.

[MasterPain]

Well, when writing about someone who has been dead since 1945, all you can go on is what they wrote, or what people have said about them. So if you can't find anything written by the man himself, then you're writing a 3rd hand account, influenced by opinion, which would not hold up in court.

According to Wikipedia, which you could say the same of,he was the grandfather of several traditional styles. He also encouraged his students to go to brothels, presumably to recruit new students so they could learn traditional karate values.

But perhaps we should just listen to Dr Clayton, who is a Dr as well as a Paladin Press author.

[hangetsu123]

the books is a great read with some interesting hypothesis on bunkai. but.... one shouldn't read it and think everything in it is the "gospel's truth" because there are holes in many of the theories the author puts forth. ( l've talked to the author on his web site and he admits the much of the material in the book was designed to be thought provoking.... As all good books are!

The book and in general was good. like I said before.... the biggest contention I had was with the bunkai of TEKKI KATA.

[ShoriKid]

Shoshin Nagamine trained with Kyan for a time while he was stationed at the Kadena Police Station*1. His account for Kyan mentions the man's instructors, Sokon Matsumura, Anko Itosu and Pechin Oyadomari. That Kyan was well educated, studying for 4 years in Tokyo learning the Chinese classics and had already begun some martial training with his father. By the same account Kyan was often challenged to fights when he was younger and by age 30 had a good fighting reputation*2.

By the time Nagamine trains with Kyan, the man was older and training children. And police officers, the reference being "..and gave instruction at the Kadena Police Station and other places." I don't assume it was merely teaching in the station, but the officers as Nagamine had been assigned to Kadena as a police officer himself.

So, not a primary source in the strictest sense of being autobiographical. But, for a historian's perspective the time from 1931-35 where Nagamine trains with Kyan and is familiar with him personally, is a primary. Accounts for Kyans training would have come from the man himself. So, primary/secondary there, gets a bit gray. Kyan's fighting reputation, either from Kyan himself, associates or other karate-ka locally. Again, primary/secondary depending on how it you want to rate things. Not refuting the author without having read the work, but it seems that Nagamine has a different view of Kyan than Dr. Clayton.

*1 Shoshin Nagamine: The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do pg 41

*2 As above, pg 40

[Ueshirokarate]

It is a good read and I learned some stuff from it. However, I don't like the way he slams Kyan and infers that Shotokan is superior to Kyan's lineage arts and more like the original arts of Itosu. The author conveniently leaves out Kenwa Mabuni (Shito Ryu) who like Gichin Funikoshi, was also a student of Itosu. Shito's Shuri-te katas are remarkably similar to the katas in Matsubayashi I study, which to me throws out the whimsicalness theory of Kyan's changing karate. I think it could have been written without knocking a man he doesn't know anything about. Heck, if what he was said is true about Kyan being one of the most trained martial artists in history, don't you think it should spark interest in what he taught, rather than revulsion to the man's personal life?