Principle Based BJJ Training?

[xo-karate]

From tallgeese BJJ blog:

Step 1) Evade.

Step 2) Stun.

Step 3) Unbalance.

Step 4) Control.

How would this show in BJJ? Or are the steps build in to "normal" BJJ technique?

Maybe "Evade" could be getting a grip or hooks? Or keeping distance?

"Stun" for me is a fake attack.(Haven't stunnet any other way yet.)

...

BUT for this list I would like to have more concepts or guidelines like:

"You have to have a grip - better grips is an advantace.."

"Who gets an underhook in half guard - has an advantace."

"Controlling a hip... controlling a head.."

"Leverage? Pressure?"

Every successful technique has hidden princibles that make the technique work in a given situation - what should I look for?

[MasterPain]

Until he shows up, I'll give you an idea. Evade, stun, unbalance and control is from Bujin. The stun is a real attack, at least for us, by the way. In MMA, think of how many takedowns immediately follow a strike of some sort as a set up. These principals are meant to deal with a strike from an uke standing, to control of the uke in some manner.

Some principles in BJJ might include, from guard for example, not being flat on your back, taking away space to attack, pulling their arms across your center, breaking their base, moving yourself around them as opposed to moving them. I think you'll find many attacks from guard include doing many of those things in concert. A good BJJ guy can point out a great many more.

[Liver Punch]

I think that this depends on your application. I would assume that the application of these principals to BJJ is in a combative setting.

Evade doesn't necessarily change - avoidance or outright running away are your best bet. Not getting hit or grabbed comes in second place.

Stun, in any area that striking is allowed, is also pretty much the same. When someone is in my guard, I always start things off with a slap to the ear - it usually buys me that split second of space that's required.

Unbalance, assuming you're on bottom is a sweep. If you're on top, you're either simulating, or already have won the unbalance game.

Control, for me is by whatever means I can gain it. If I can control their movement by lying in their guard and holding them down - that's just fine. If I end up in cross-chest with their head and leg hooked and my hands clasped - great. If control means a full-on arm bar that results in them no longer being a threat - I'm on with that to.

The control portion is about protecting yourself first, gaining control of them, and using the amount of force that you intend.

[bushido_man96]

Something I might add is that when you are drilling technique, you may not be using those 4 principles in the drilling phase. Drilling a technique is going to be different than using those principles to drill a scenario.

[ps1]

Do you have a link to the blog. I'm afraid I need more context as I'm not even sure I agree with the original list as it is. I would see this list as similar to principles from Aiki Ju-Jitsu. Please add a link, and I'll be happy to put in my 2 cents.

[tallgeese]

The article is up in the Articles section.

xo, you raise an interesting question. First let me start by saying that principle based work as I look at it and explain it in the article is about setting up a response pattern to aggression. It's about being confronted with violence and winning. Not learning an art. However, your goals or principles will certainly effect your training.

ps1, it won't be surprising if those look similar to aiki jiujitsu is some fashon. There certainly is some roots for our system that go back to it, one of it's "grandfathers" so to speak was highly ranked.

So I can't look at them and tell you how to look at BJJ thru them. What I can tell you, is how BJJ fits into my principles for prevailing in street level conflict.

First up, you're met with aggression of some sort. For ease of example, let's say someone takes a swing with a punch.

Historically, this has been bob n weave time for me. Or perhaps hand trapping response. Why? Because the first principle I need to deal with is Evade. Not to get hit.

The more I do BJJ, I've noted that my evasion is more and more reliant upon a level change and shot. This lets me evade hand attacks and move the target they are attacking.

Next up, I need to stun the individual, make him think about not hurting me. Again, traditionally, this has been a counter punch for me. Or a few depending.

Then we go to unbalancing. Taking his center. This is one area where I've almost totally re-wrote my game since my BJJ career took off so I can state how BJJ has effected this particular prinicple. This used to be the area where I'd work straight arm bars, bent arm bars, ect. Now, it's gone to almost exclusively body contact takedowns. Doubles and singles of all varieties. It's a recent (relative to my time in martial arts) evolution. I just see these types of takedowns as more controlling and have had more luck putting people down with them. It's also made it easier to move into the final phase of control.

Last we get to control. This is physically imposing your will on the attacker so he can no longer attack. This is where I use a lot of mount, side, and knee if for my job. I fully understand that it could also be done via knockout, standing RNC, ect. For me, this is what's evolved most natrually.

So, for now, I can show you how my BJJ training has effected my principles but not the other way around. I'm not sure it works the other way because that's not what the principles were designed for. They will effect your learning of an art and how you work it into your response for sure; however.

I will stand by those principles as highly valid for prevailing in unarmed conflict, though. Getting out of the way of harm, hitting back, taking the bad guys center and ability to generate power, and finally owning him and the environment paint a pretty good progressive pattern for coming out on top. By training to pull off those things and gearing your tactics to accomplishing them, you greatly increase your odds of winning. It directs your actions during a fight rather than let you rely on a bag of tactics to throw without progressive strategy at the bad guy.

I don't for a second believe that these are the ONLY principle set out there. I can say that they are valid and work. Others might as well. And anything that realistically directs self defense efforts is a vast leap above many martial artists.

[ps1]

Thanks for the context Tallgeese.

Regarding the original post:

It's important to remember the underlying maxim for all Judo and BJJ is, "Minimum Effort for Maximum Effect" What you're really creating is a hierarchy of principles. At the top of that hierarchy must be "Minimum effort for Maximum effect." Directly under that you could place the 4 concepts that Tallgeese presented and explained. More over, all other positions should fall under those 4 concepts.

Concepts presented in the original post would be another subset which are based on individual positions rather than a focus on the whole art. In addition, they fall under only one of they 4 concepts presented by Tallgeese. For example, better grips fall under either unbalance or control, depending on the position.

A basic way you can apply the 4 concepts to BJJ, once on the ground, could be as follows:

Evade: Defend the neck & strikes, Defend the appendages from attack, If on top defend the base, start your move. This can also include framing the opponent and standing to get away.

Stun: Mentally, being ahead of the opponent in position and transition can be mentally stunning. Physically, striking can be a great advantage if you know how to do it while grappling.

Control: This could actually be placed almost anywhere in grappling. Control should be attained as soon as possible and maintained throughout all positions and transitions. This includes the things mentioned in the original thread. Grips, underhooks, pressure ect...

Unbalance: Again, this can be physical or mental. Maintaining control and smoothly transitioning from one move to another can be mentally draining on an opponent. They struggle to keep up and to mount any defense. Physically this could more directly relate to sweeps and takedowns.

So, in my opinion, BJJ can easily fit into these 4 basic concepts.

[xo-karate]

what about princibles for learning an art - BJJ?

[ps1]

Learning and learning styles are unique to the individual. Some people learn perfectly simply by hearing information. Some people learn well simply by seeing. Others learn by doing. It's pretty well understood that the most powerful method of learning is to see, hear, and do the task. This is the method most sports and martial arts employ to teach skill based tasks.

[xo-karate]

I agree on learning styles, but my question is... how ever you learn, what princibles should you learn from BJJ.