Karate without Kata?

[sojobo]

Just noticed your listed styles Masterpain.

"A codified, yet free flowing and still evolving system of violence".

Dang!! I should have trade marked that.

sojobo

[MasterPain]

Had to adapt it, codified sounded too rigid on it's own.

[Liver Punch]

Here's a question that seems to relate to this discussion: Why is there a community of people using words from a language and culture that they have absolutely no understanding of? Bunkai means to disassemble - but that's a hugely broad term.

I disassembled a computer at work on Friday, a rifle on Saturday, and headlight today. Something tell me that despite fitting the definition perfectly, they don't fit our discussion.

The inquisitive title of this thread prompts two entirely different discussions. Within these discussions, there are two sides and a million explanations. Frankly, I'm not sure which of these discussions we're having. In the event that anyone else is unsure as to what's going on, I'll share "aloud."

The simple question, with simple answers is what the opening poster clarified his question to be: "can you learn karate techniques and movement with simply kihon and kumite?" There are presumably two thoughts on this. 1) No, you can't learn Karate techniques and movement without kata. The kata is there for a reason, it is a teaching tool, it you're incomplete without its benefits. 2)Yes, you can learn Karate techniques and movement without kata. Everything that is in a kata can be learned with instruction, practices in drills, and perfected in simulated combat.

The complicated question, which seemingly has nothing to do with the opening poster's question is: Is a Karate-derived martial art that is void of kata semantically, philosophically, and lineraly sufficient to be called Karate? Again, we've got two basic camps on this. 1) Who cares. You can call it Ballet, but if it teaches someone the skills necessary to defend themselves properly, it's just fine. 2) There are a bunch of words from a time period that nobody alive can remember that still exist in a language and culture that almost none of us have spent enough time immersed within to fully understand. Because of this, we must take what we've been told and taught at face value and believe it exists in only that way. And that's why you can't have Karate without kata.

Am I properly grasping this?

[MasterPain]

For the record, my answers are 2 on the first and 1 on the second.

[MasterPain]

On an unrelated note, where is SAAMAG?

When I open a can of worms, I stick around and go fishin.

[tallgeese]

On an unrelated note, where is SAAMAG?

When I open a can of worms, I stick around and go fishin.

So true! What do you say SAAMAG? Any thoughts on any of the points of discussion to date?

[MasterPain]

I bring popcorn every time I come to this thread, it is not good for my diet.

[sojobo]

Do you two (MP and LP) train with tallgeese?

sojobo

[MasterPain]

Do you two (MP and LP) train with tallgeese?

sojobo

We're all from the same art, but live in different areas. They still come down and beat on me on holidays and such.

[sojobo]

Maybe one day I'll cross the pond again and we can all train together and compare notes.

I am sure we are actually closer than we think.

Sojobo