Karate without Kata?

[LittleW]

In my dojo there is quite a difference between kata and combinations in the sense of what they are trained for.

The combinations are used to show us a set of techniques we can actually use in a fight. It wouldn't be realistic to think you will ever have a fight where you can use a kata from the first to the last technique.

We can even vary the kata a bit. Do it ura (like seen in a mirror), with additional techniques, in a shortened form, even backwards (though that takes out the strength and speed) or with all techniques gyaku.

But if you want to do Karate and just fight, you have certainly choosen the wrong MA.

[todome]

The kata are the memory of karate, collected over the centuries. I'll never know everything there is to know about the art, but if anything or anyone does, it's the kata.

[tallgeese]

I think that if you take Kata out of a martial art, you end up learning only what your instructor promotes and know. If you learn Kata, a reasonably intelligent person can actually learn more than what the instructor is willing or able to teach.

But all styles don't use kata as a training tool. Lacking kata isn't going to cause an inefficiency in learning.

Could you give me an example?

Sure. BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Aikido, Combat Hapkido, Pankration, are some off the top of my head that don't train with kata. All are effective combat systems.

BJJ - this teaches combinations of techniques, THIS IS KATA

 

Wrestling - same as above

 

Boxing - each Gym has its own set of techniques and combinations practiced together makes up a Kata

 

Muay Thai - Again each Camp practices its own combinations and again when they practice them all together 1 after the other this is Kata, I know when I trained in Muay Thai myself My Arjan shouted 24, 10, 12, 15 & 4 etc

Aikido - Sojobo has answered.

Hapkido - These have Hyungs here's 1 of them

I've not come across a style yet that doesn't have a series of combinations/techniques put together to make it easier to practice!

As Sojobo said Kata Does NOT have to practiced alone, it can also be in pairs too

If we look at the bolded statement, we go back to the point in my last post that really points out the difference in what you're talking about here and kata as it's defined. Even two man kata. There is a radical difference in having a string of tactics that you move, work, cut angles on against a live , mobile opponent (yes, I've boxed) and the typically rigid, straight lines of kata. A vast difference. In mindset as much as movement.

Practicing a set of techniques in BJJ hardly matches the idea of kata because the next time you work it there will be variants. You'll use a different grip, a different set up, chain together different attacks. Having done kata (albeit long ago) and BJJ, I can say that working kata and working tactics in BJJ are two different worlds and in no way comparable.

[sojobo]

Practicing a set of techniques in BJJ hardly matches the idea of kata because the next time you work it there will be variants. You'll use a different grip, a different set up, chain together different attacks. Having done kata (albeit long ago) and BJJ, I can say that working kata and working tactics in BJJ are two different worlds and in no way comparable.

A good instructor will have you work on different scenarious with the paired kata.

As well a oyo (application) there is henka waza or variation.

For example - a move done whilst drawing the sword will also be practiced with a Kodachi (short sword) as well as open hand.

The point is that the principles learnt within the kata are transferred to different mediums.

sojobo

[Liver Punch]

BJJ - this teaches combinations of techniques, THIS IS KATA

Something tells me that if I show up to a "traditional martial arts tournament" and enter into the Kata portion of that tournament, the judging panel would disagree. Royce Gracie himself bowing to the judges, pulling guard on an imaginary opponent, transitioning into a triangle, then an armbar, then sweeping the imaginary opponent, passing his guard, mounting him and choking him out with an arm triangle would result in Royce being beaten in the kata competition by a bunch of 12 year old TKD practitioners.

[Groinstrike]

BJJ - this teaches combinations of techniques, THIS IS KATA

Something tells me that if I show up to a "traditional martial arts tournament" and enter into the Kata portion of that tournament, the judging panel would disagree. Royce Gracie himself bowing to the judges, pulling guard on an imaginary opponent, transitioning into a triangle, then an armbar, then sweeping the imaginary opponent, passing his guard, mounting him and choking him out with an arm triangle would result in Royce being beaten in the kata competition by a bunch of 12 year old TKD practitioners.

The mental picture i get from this is incredibly amusing.

[Groinstrike]

I think what this boils down to is an argument about which flavor of ice cream is better, chocolate or vanilla. Are they different, yes, but at the end of the day they are still ice cream.

I think that when most people think of kata, they don't think of BJJ drills. Thinking of BJJ drills as a form of kata is fine, but one must understand that this is not what most people think of as kata.

The title of this thread is asking us if Karate is capable of existing without kata. If we define kata as any drill used to increase skill and technique in a martial art, then the answer must be no. But in that case, could any martial art exist without "kata".

On another note, if we define kata as a drill to increase a person martial skill, could we not then say that sparring is nothing more than a drill(albeit a less restricted one) and by that logic a kata?? Maybe im over generalizing here but if we use that logic couldn't we then just lump Freesparring or grappling as just another form of kata??

[tallgeese]

Just so we get lost, I've never said there is no reason to do kata. Just that it's not the ideal training method for combat. Karate being an evolving (thru it's history) set of systems that are about unarmed combat is entirely capable of surviving and thriving without the use of kata given today's knowledge.

I also think that we're probably going too far if we start to label every drill, movement, and tactic as kata. I think the popular opinion would be that this is not the case. LP summed this up well I think.

Now, the following that todome said:

The kata are the memory of karate, collected over the centuries. I'll never know everything there is to know about the art, but if anything or anyone does, it's the kata.

Might be one of the most beautiful, and best for that matter, arguments for why someone would want to do karate that is heavily influenced by kata. I still feel that this application has more to do with cultural preservation and history than combat, but I would use this an argument as to the beauty of the art beyond combat application.

However, if one's focus is combative, it can still exist without the training method of kata. If you look at Siddell's works he talks about applying adult learning theory to combat physiology and learning. One of the primary factors in getting adults to remember and learn tactics is direct application to the skill they want to learn.

If one is studying martial arts for self defense and fighting, then other methods show this more direct correlation. If one is training for historical or cultural preservation or a connection to something larger, then todome's statement directly relates to those goals.

It's about matching goals to methods. Karate is large enough to handle both.

[pers]

Karate without kata is like learning the alphabet without being able to read and write .

each in its own level , whether you do Heian shodan as a beginner or Unsu as a 3rd dan , same principals apply .

[MasterPain]

Karate without kata is like learning the alphabet without being able to read and write .

each in its own level , whether you do Heian shodan as a beginner or Unsu as a 3rd dan , same principals apply .

Too many schools just learn another alphabet, and thereby never make sentences or write books.