Karate without Kata?

[Ueshirokarate]

Fair enough on your opinion. However, I think there are some pretty strong arguments that better drills can be designed based on modern understanding of adult learning. Also, I think it's important to consider the fact that more direclty applicable drills can be conducted that more quickly enhance a students ability to win and thus survive a conflict.

I won't go over them again, but I spell them out thru the thread.

Basically, kata is very static and fights aren't. Why train statically, over and over when it bears little in common with actual combat. Again, I cite other application of this, but it's already in the thread.

I invite you to train with me sometime if you are ever in the NY area, as I would love to show you how we use traditional kata and why we value it so much. No doubt we can teach one another something.

[tallgeese]

I have no doubt about two way learning and would certainly be open to meeting more guys from KF. I do have friends out that way so it's a possibility at some point.

My thing is, I've trained via kata, and I've trained without it. I know how I learn best and there, to me, isn't an attribute that kata develops (which I agree with your list, btw) that can't be developed under more real conditions and thus better prepare me for what I want those tactics for.

[Ueshirokarate]

I have no doubt about two way learning and would certainly be open to meeting more guys from KF. I do have friends out that way so it's a possibility at some point.

My thing is, I've trained via kata, and I've trained without it. I know how I learn best and there, to me, isn't an attribute that kata develops (which I agree with your list, btw) that can't be developed under more real conditions and thus better prepare me for what I want those tactics for.

Out of curiosity, what style have you trained "kata" in?

[tallgeese]

My core style of Bujin utilized the kata out of Goju up thru the tensho and seanchin (sp?) series. I also had the good luck to train in a couple of the nihachi (again- sp?) series while working for another instructor during my college years.

Here's the thing, for me, with kata- you're doing and working on all those things:

"simultaneously work foot work, cardio, balance, fight techniques, etc"

in a vacuum.

If we do mitt work, partnered drilling, obvious stimuli for your resoponses so that there is no deconstruction step you make training much more live and much easier for an adult to learn and understand why he is doing these things.

I had a great instructor with a weath of knowledge about kata in college. His empahsis was on the joint manipulation shown in kata. However, for me, taking the time to do it disjointedly in prearragned patters was no where near as effective a learning tool as simply getting a partner and working the actual movement agianst them. Then from a more random attack at more speed. Then against an opponent in armor that you could strike more realistically against, then have him resist and move on to another tactic you've worked, ect.

It's a learning pattern that just about every profession that deals with violence in a modern setting uses. Again, I'll point out the book "The Tactical Trainer" by Paul Howe. It uses a building progression for several of the SWAT and tactics schools he teaches. It's a manual on how to build tactical units thru training principles. It's basically a guide to developing lesson plans. The steps he goes thru are much more similar to what I'm talking about (and to a large degree I've patterned much of my marial learning around this sort of thinking, it gave a format to the things I've been thinking about for years) than the use of anything that resembles kata in any way.

This (or something like it) is how most of the professions that deal with armed professionals learn their trade these days. It's not "kata" but it's a model of learning that has grown with the knowledge and understanding of todays psycology and combatives.

Here's a link to an article I wrote for the site that kind of discusses the process I'm talking about it might be easier than explaining:

http://www.karateforums.com/focus-mitt-training-for-the-multi-disciplined-fighter-vt34351.html

Just an example. But you'll note the emphasis on all of those things you mention, except the goals are immediatly recognizeable by the student and there is a premium on movement and dealing with incoming aggression.

[Ueshirokarate]

My core style of Bujin utilized the kata out of Goju up thru the tensho and seanchin (sp?) series. I also had the good luck to train in a couple of the nihachi (again- sp?) series while working for another instructor during my college years.

Here's the thing, for me, with kata- you're doing and working on all those things:

"simultaneously work foot work, cardio, balance, fight techniques, etc"

in a vacuum.

If we do mitt work, partnered drilling, obvious stimuli for your resoponses so that there is no deconstruction step you make training much more live and much easier for an adult to learn and understand why he is doing these things.

I had a great instructor with a weath of knowledge about kata in college. His empahsis was on the joint manipulation shown in kata. However, for me, taking the time to do it disjointedly in prearragned patters was no where near as effective a learning tool as simply getting a partner and working the actual movement agianst them. Then from a more random attack at more speed. Then against an opponent in armor that you could strike more realistically against, then have him resist and move on to another tactic you've worked, ect.

It's a learning pattern that just about every profession that deals with violence in a modern setting uses. Again, I'll point out the book "The Tactical Trainer" by Paul Howe. It uses a building progression for several of the SWAT and tactics schools he teaches. It's a manual on how to build tactical units thru training principles. It's basically a guide to developing lesson plans. The steps he goes thru are much more similar to what I'm talking about (and to a large degree I've patterned much of my marial learning around this sort of thinking, it gave a format to the things I've been thinking about for years) than the use of anything that resembles kata in any way.

This (or something like it) is how most of the professions that deal with armed professionals learn their trade these days. It's not "kata" but it's a model of learning that has grown with the knowledge and understanding of todays psycology and combatives.

Here's a link to an article I wrote for the site that kind of discusses the process I'm talking about it might be easier than explaining:

http://www.karateforums.com/focus-mitt-training-for-the-multi-disciplined-fighter-vt34351.html

Just an example. But you'll note the emphasis on all of those things you mention, except the goals are immediatly recognizeable by the student and there is a premium on movement and dealing with incoming aggression.

The modern training methodology you put forth is really no different from the training I have experienced in a very traditional Okinawan system with its foundation being kata. Kata is not training in a vacuum and if you believe this and the fact that you believe application isn't immediately recognizable, you have not experienced proper instruction in its use. Every move, from a strike to a turning from one technique to another and even the movements in between and from the side that isn't apparently attacking or blocking has a direct application to fighting. The deeper you go in studying kata (especially advanced ones), the more brilliant you discover them to be.

Think about it, kata has been used for hundreds of years. Do you really think the thousands of martial artists who spent decades upon decades of training for real combat (on a level you and I can fortunately only imagine) would waste their time with a superfluous dance? Their very lives depended on their empty hand training, as they could be literally be attacked by a sword wielding opponent at anytime and we are no smarter today than they were in 1700.

[ShoriKid]

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I keep meaning to post, but never have the time to put together a long, all encompassing post to cover all the points brought up. But, I will put forth my heretical view on kata.

I work kata and believe the contain valid combat application with solid principles and concepts being communicated in the movements. However, where I differ from a lot of kata proponents is where I believe they fall in the training scheme. Kata are, primarily, for out of class solo drilling. As a package of techniques and drills that follow a certain concept throughout. Class time is time to work application, drill with mitts, shields and do partner work. Working kata in class is to get the basics down enough to start refining and to see where the partnered work is coming from. Get the occasional corrects on the kata. That's it. I don't feel like the guys who passed kata down to us spent all their time with groups of people working kata. Heck, most every old photo of karate training I can think of that involves more than one person training is partnered drills, not two guys doing kata. Now, you might spend a whole class learning the kata and getting the first few break downs to drills. You might not train kata again for weeks. The instructor was counting on you to do that on your own. Then he has you run it, makes a correction or two. The whole time in between you're working what that kata does in drills.

Time to clean up for the day, so, more later maybe. Too stinking sunburned to train right now, so I may as well post. Heck, shoes are an issue right now!

[Ueshirokarate]

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I keep meaning to post, but never have the time to put together a long, all encompassing post to cover all the points brought up. But, I will put forth my heretical view on kata.

I work kata and believe the contain valid combat application with solid principles and concepts being communicated in the movements. However, where I differ from a lot of kata proponents is where I believe they fall in the training scheme. Kata are, primarily, for out of class solo drilling. As a package of techniques and drills that follow a certain concept throughout. Class time is time to work application, drill with mitts, shields and do partner work. Working kata in class is to get the basics down enough to start refining and to see where the partnered work is coming from. Get the occasional corrects on the kata. That's it. I don't feel like the guys who passed kata down to us spent all their time with groups of people working kata. Heck, most every old photo of karate training I can think of that involves more than one person training is partnered drills, not two guys doing kata. Now, you might spend a whole class learning the kata and getting the first few break downs to drills. You might not train kata again for weeks. The instructor was counting on you to do that on your own. Then he has you run it, makes a correction or two. The whole time in between you're working what that kata does in drills.

Time to clean up for the day, so, more later maybe. Too stinking sunburned to train right now, so I may as well post. Heck, shoes are an issue right now!

I pretty much agree with you. However, you can't do bunkai alone.

[kamahlthedruid]

a 1956 marine corp martial art called american street combat survival or defense360 is karate without katas. ALso an old navy seal martial arts called scars is basically san soo without katas. I don't have first hand experiences in these styles though.

[Ueshirokarate]

a 1956 marine corp martial art called american street combat survival or defense360 is karate without katas. ALso an old navy seal martial arts called scars is basically san soo without katas.

SCARS training is based on repetitive two person drills, so in effect the exact same thing as yakosuko kumite and bunkai. We are talking about a method to train full time combat soldiers who live their life as such, surrounded by others with the same training. There is in effect no need for solo kata practice for these individual, as they can always grab a buddy and train. Most of us do not have this luxury. If they were to train these drills without a partner, they are performing kata.

[MasterPain]

If they were to train these drills without a partner, they are performing kata.

By this definition, I do a lot of kata.