Karate without Kata?

[KarateCroft]

I too, am a sd focused ma-ist when it comes to my core arts. I agree, sparring alone can't make one ready to defend ones self, it's a tool. In fact, by varying the kind of sparring one does, you're effectively changing the tool you're using to sharpen attributes.

Kata, is the same, a tool. It is; however, a tool invented over a hundred years ago.

Self defense does not rely on kata. It relies on the development of skills thru drilling and the use of training modalities. Basic tactics (what most people would call kihon I suppose) are another tool.

Just like building something (in this case martial skill) if you use tools better suited to the job at hand, the better results you'll get (in this case, more realistic drills and modern application).

I've never been a point sparring fan. Nothing wrong with it if that's what you're into. But again, I feel it's a poor tool choice to develop self defense skill when we're talking about sparring choices. Same, for me, with kata. Nothing wrong with it if you're doing it because you like it. But it's a sub-par choice for skill development to survive assault, where one would be better served by a more live, realistic based drill than rote memorization of patterns that hide application. It's just about streamlining the learning process.

For me.

Well Said.

[xo-karate]

I agree with tallgeese about the tools analogy. Kata is a tool as well as kihon and other drills. Question is kata a tool for. What is it good for? I am in a process of making my own kata, but it's far more difficult than I expected, because my goal is to make a kata to develop the skills I think I need. (And I realized that I don't know what I need and also kata and grappling is a difficult compination:-)

BUT what is kata good for? Learning techniques and compinations? Not timing? Not grappling? Distance? Maybe it's good for balance and strict form - not so much about application of technique.

Also I think that kata is a cultural thing. In some styles on clubs it's more a way of doing karate. Often kata does not have a lot to do with a powerful technique - it might be more a choreagraphic movement focused on if a little finger is pointing in or out? BUT that's culture:-)

I am lucky in a way that I don't need to focus on SD in my training. I can't remember when I've been in a situation that was even slightly dangerous. I do it for fun and health.

[bushido_man96]

I agree about the cultural aspect of katas, xo-karate. You don't see it in the sport-oriented styles that came out of the west, such as Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

[Ueshirokarate]

From a purely martial arts training aspect, kata trains your total body to strike, deflect, get inside, get around, throw, grapple, etc. In Okinawan based styles, they say kata is karate. I would argue that since karate is from Okinawa, that if styles don't value kata, they may call themselves a karate style, but are they?

I spent years doing traditional Matsubayashi Ryu katas and per-arranged sparring. I often wondered if I was missing out just doing this the traditional way. I recently started to play around with light sparring and I have to say that I am amazed at how well I do at it. Don't dismiss the old way of doing kata over and over and over again for years on end.

[tallgeese]

It's the "years and years" part of that, that is hard for me to deal with. I might be in a conflict tomorrow. I'm not saying that training for years and years is bad, in fact, I've been at it for over two decades now; but there is a lot of decoding to kata. It's like an intermediate step to learning. First learn the pattern of the kata, then the bunkai, then get good at using them.

I maintain that most adults learn better when they can immediately see the use of what they are learning. If we just start working on all those things you listed, you start getting applicable reps of each sooner. This means that after you train years and years, you've effectively gotten more "live" reps because you cut out an intermediate step.

[Ueshirokarate]

It's the "years and years" part of that, that is hard for me to deal with. I might be in a conflict tomorrow. I'm not saying that training for years and years is bad, in fact, I've been at it for over two decades now; but there is a lot of decoding to kata. It's like an intermediate step to learning. First learn the pattern of the kata, then the bunkai, then get good at using them.

I maintain that most adults learn better when they can immediately see the use of what they are learning. If we just start working on all those things you listed, you start getting applicable reps of each sooner. This means that after you train years and years, you've effectively gotten more "live" reps because you cut out an intermediate step.

It takes years and years to get good at any form of fighting.

[tallgeese]

Right, which means that any excess that can be streamlined should be. Especially if there are other, more realistic methods of training available. Again, if we're talking about self defense here.

[xo-karate]

I think that Kata as a learning and practising tool was developed for a specific purpose, in a different culture and different kind of compat than most of us will counter. (Well - I'm not countering any:-)

My point is that kata has been a training tool when there was no visual aids, not so many teachers and not so many ways to get feedback - and compat was for life, against weapons and maybe against multiple attackers. In this situation you can not second quess.

Compat situations have a large range - from point scoring to SD. And training tools are different ... and all so katas might be different? Katas might lack the knowledge that primary inventor had in them - and often we don't know for what purpose a set of katas were developed.

And after this - I am not saying that kata is BAD. I just would like to repeat movements with out a clue on what I am doing:-)

[Ueshirokarate]

Right, which means that any excess that can be streamlined should be. Especially if there are other, more realistic methods of training available. Again, if we're talking about self defense here.

I don't think kata is excessive at all. In fact, any repeated series of movements one does is a kata and that holds true if all you do is jab, uppercut, right hook kick and do it over and over again and if this is all you do, it will still take years to master it. Kata allows the practitioner to work on a number of things at once. In fact, I am certain that kata is about the most streamlined way one can train karate.

Okinawan styles of karate hold that kata is karate. We train kata extensively. We pull apart all the techniques, analyze various applications for these techniques and drill them. Kata not only works the techniques, but it is used for conditioning purposes. Think of it this way, you simultaneously work foot work, cardio, balance, fight techniques, etc. In my view it is the single most valuable and most efficient way to train the most things at one time.

I suggest that those who disagree with me, probably have a huge disconnect between kata and real world fighting. There are many, many styles where kata is misunderstood, denigrated, dismissed, etc and if done, it is only done out of tradition. To each his own I suppose, but with my experience, no one is going to convince me that there are more efficient ways to teach and learn pure Te (the Okinawan stuff).

[tallgeese]

Fair enough on your opinion. However, I think there are some pretty strong arguments that better drills can be designed based on modern understanding of adult learning. Also, I think it's important to consider the fact that more direclty applicable drills can be conducted that more quickly enhance a students ability to win and thus survive a conflict.

I won't go over them again, but I spell them out thru the thread.

Basically, kata is very static and fights aren't. Why train statically, over and over when it bears little in common with actual combat. Again, I cite other application of this, but it's already in the thread.