Karate without Kata?

[xo-karate]

Jissen - I like your signature.

"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the old masters, rather, seek what they sought."

Have you applied it to your kata's?

[Jissen]

I only practice a couple kata myself. I'm not a karateka persay.

I take that saying to mean you shouldn't be bound by tradition. But it's been my experience, that when studied, the arts "as they are" provide plenty of room for interpretation and personalization. However that being said, there are other ways of training today that weren't around 100 or more yrs ago, we shouldn't deny them simply because they're not "traditional".

Like Patrick Mcarthey says its about "keeping the spirit of their flame alight" more than copying them exactly.

Where i think many people fall short is they dont get that kata, or their one steps, or self defense techniques, are just "formal versions" that are designed to teach you the mechanics, and allow you to study, targets, angles, etc etc.

Then you gotta take that information and put it in a live environment and practice it. I'd rather see people doing that than finding a thousand different applications for chudan uke but never practicing them to proficiency.

I often say we study "martial" "arts" ...we are learning how to separate the "martial" from the "art" for self defense, because the "art" of karate (or any other) is not fighting, it's a training methodology, or an "art" that teaches you things ABOUT fighting. Its up to us as practitioners to bring that info into the modern era. I believe this is the way the "art" was designed.

just my opinion however.

[Dobbersky]

I only practice a couple kata myself. I'm not a karateka persay.

..................... just my opinion however.

From your "Stage Name", It seems you are a Kempoist (Jissen - real Combat, Kempo - an Okinawan/Chinese Art with components similar to Karate or Jujitsu, Jujitsu - A Japanese art with origins within the Chin Na art of Gung Fu system brought to Japan in the 1600's by returning Samurai).

Would love to know what kata do you practice as I found that "Kempo Jujitsu" practitioners tend to practice minimal Kata with not much emphasis on the application of these forms. compared to the "Kempo Karate" practitioner who have a lot more Kata and do work on application of the forms etc.

That saying All USA Kempo originates from GM Ed Parker who called it Kempo Karate

[Jissen]

From your "Stage Name", It seems you are a Kempoist (Jissen - real Combat, Kempo - an Okinawan/Chinese Art with components similar to Karate or Jujitsu, Jujitsu - A Japanese art with origins within the Chin Na art of Gung Fu system brought to Japan in the 1600's by returning Samurai).

Kempo is just a general term for martial arts. Almost all martial arts, at least most, have at one time or another been referred to as kempo/kenpo. In Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia they use the term Kuntao. In Mandarin Chinese its Chuan Fa. In Korean its Kwan Bop.

I'm not sure I would agree that Jujutsu "came from" Chin Na. I think it's kind of silly to think that Chinese people are the only ones smart enough to figure out that if you bend someone's finger backwards, it hurts, and if you keep going, you can dislocate the joint. Or that if you squeeze a tendon or muscle it can hurt, and this can lead to many techniques. Influence perhaps..."came from" not so much.

Would love to know what kata do you practice as I found that "Kempo Jujitsu" practitioners tend to practice minimal Kata with not much emphasis on the application of these forms. compared to the "Kempo Karate" practitioner who have a lot more Kata and do work on application of the forms etc.

Kempo Jujutsu isn't really an art in and of itself in my experience. Many people including Hironori Ohtsuka, Gichin Funakoshi, and Choki Motobu have used similar names to refer to their arts. So it's hard to pidgeon hole everyone who uses that name in with all the others (like any art).

I use it for several reasons, I'll explain later.

I practice a TKD form I learned years ago (dont even know the name of it). Pinan Nidan, and Naihanchi Shodan mainly, but also do a Sanchin type of thing.

The kempo in the name I use initially had nothing to do with Okinawan karate, my interest in karate came later through research. Like a few others here, I stared in Gokei Ryu Kempo Jujutsu. We did zero kata at all.

I use the term Jissen Kempo Jujutsu because everything I do can fall under that heading. I'm no grandmaster or founder of anything. People ask, so I made up an answer, it's really that simple lol ..I also kind of shy away from the word "ryu" ...I'd rather study "arts" than "styles"...you could say JKJ is a 'system' which incorporates things from many "styles".

Jissen: real fighting, the overall direction my training takes.

Kempo: comes first in the name because in my opinion 2/3 of all fights (even sport fights) end with striking. Look at MMA, there are 3 basic ways to win decisively. 1 KO (striking), 2 Submission (grappling), 3 Ground & Pound (striking).

I also believe you must strike first (pre-emptively) when possible in a real fight.

I believe you must strike to set up your locks, and throws as well. So that's why its in the name before jujutsu (and it just sounds better) ..its also the name my teacher used.

I also have interest in the arts now "named" kempo, from EPAKS, to Kajukenbo, to Okinawa Kenpo..etc. So it's also used literally, as well as to generally give respect to the chinese influence on martial arts in general.

Of course it also generically denotes the striking portion of what I do.

Jujutsu: Generically denotes the grappling side of what I do. Philosophically I believe you should only "grapple" with someone when you must, or if you've set it up before hand. Gives respect to the Japanese influence. Also used literally as I've an interest in Jujutsu as an art.

They're put together because they were taught together by my teacher, and most who've influenced me. They're taught as "one art" as one Sensei puts it.

My goal is real fighting. I have as my main influences, the "kempo arts" and "jujutsu arts"...to put it quite simply.

That saying All USA Kempo originates from GM Ed Parker who called it Kempo Karate

Ed Parkers art changed a lot over the years, as did the name. He didn't always call his art Kenpo Karate, infact the one he settled on was just American Kenpo without the Karate.

Most Kempo of the Hawaiian/Western variety (Shaolin/EPAKS/Kajukenbo) is technique based, not kata based. Though you could call each technique kata, similar to Koryu Jujutsu.

They learn techniques, variations etc...and this is the bulk of their training. As for EPAKS...the kata are just their SD techniques strung together. Some Shaolin Kempo branches 'bunkai' their forms. Most don't, they just use them for balance, and 'quality of movement' exercises from what I've seen.

However so is Karate once you bunkai the kata...you end up with techniques that you practice.

[Dobbersky]

Jissen

I am really looking forward to some really good conversations my friend.

I read this book a friend of mine wrote would recommend it to you

The Way Of The Internal Gate ~ The Gate To The Truth: Living Principles [Paperback]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Way-Internal-Gate-Truth-Principles/dp/1434377288/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Its a book that has no loyalty to any martial art. Its about ethos and other areas

[Jissen]

Cool thanks

[KarateCroft]

To me, you cannot have a complete Karate system without kata. If ou practice only kihon and kumite you are "simply learning to point spar". I think when you do kata it not only connects you with the old masters but offers a way to continually improve your kihon. How many kihon techniques are in your katas? In my style they are full of them! You can improve your techniques, sharpen them. You are supposed to delve deep into the kata and take techniques from them as well. Not only that katas like Sanchin are good for health!

[MasterPain]

If ou practice only kihon and kumite you are "simply learning to point spar".

If your kihon and kumite are just for point sparring, I'm not sure kata would help much.

[KarateCroft]

If ou practice only kihon and kumite you are "simply learning to point spar".

If your kihon and kumite are just for point sparring, I'm not sure kata would help much.

I don't use it personally for that, I simply meant that so many dojos out there stress point kumite - Thats okay, I do point kumite and tournaments as well - however, I personally use karate for self defense - if you only do kumite and no kata then what are you actually learning?

[tallgeese]

I too, am a sd focused ma-ist when it comes to my core arts. I agree, sparring alone can't make one ready to defend ones self, it's a tool. In fact, by varying the kind of sparring one does, you're effectively changing the tool you're using to sharpen attributes.

Kata, is the same, a tool. It is; however, a tool invented over a hundred years ago.

Self defense does not rely on kata. It relies on the development of skills thru drilling and the use of training modalities. Basic tactics (what most people would call kihon I suppose) are another tool.

Just like building something (in this case martial skill) if you use tools better suited to the job at hand, the better results you'll get (in this case, more realistic drills and modern application).

I've never been a point sparring fan. Nothing wrong with it if that's what you're into. But again, I feel it's a poor tool choice to develop self defense skill when we're talking about sparring choices. Same, for me, with kata. Nothing wrong with it if you're doing it because you like it. But it's a sub-par choice for skill development to survive assault, where one would be better served by a more live, realistic based drill than rote memorization of patterns that hide application. It's just about streamlining the learning process.

For me.