Karate without Kata?

[sojobo]

Just had a thought.

Here's you three Bujin Bugei Jutsu lads (MP, LP And TG) getting really stuck in to a discussion on Karate - in a forum called karateforums.com!

Is there a Bujin Bugai Jutsu forum that I can get involved in to even the keel as it were?

sojobo

[tallgeese]

I am now out the door to actually TRAIN, not just talk about it i'll have to chime back in tomorrow.

That said, I think this thread has been fantastic on a couple of levels. We've had a great, passionate discussion with drastically different views and backgrounds involved and even people on each side of the debate have had variations on the theme. Everyone has had sound arguments.

And it's been civil. Threads like this are why I like hanging out on this site.

Edited February 14, 2012 by tallgeese

[sojobo]

I see immediacy as important to everyone who walks in a set of doors for self defense. There's a difference between useful now and mastery when we're talking about methods of training. But it's a finite point.

You should definitley train with the Muso Shinden-ryu group - you are so nearly there!!!

sojobo

[Groinstrike]

Just had a thought.

Here's you three Bujin Bugei Jutsu lads (MP, LP And TG) getting really stuck in to a discussion on Karate - in a forum called karateforums.com!

Is there a Bujin Bugai Jutsu forum that I can get involved in to even the keel as it were?

sojobo

Unfortunately our system only has about 15-20 members, and only 10-12 black belts. It would be sort of neat to start up a forum for our system, maybe tallgeese can get on that.

The great thing imo about our system is that every single person that has achieved shodan has a different style of fighting and self defense. We encourage cross-training and finding the techniques that allow you to be succesful based on your attributes.

[MasterPain]

Just had a thought.

Here's you three Bujin Bugei Jutsu lads (MP, LP And TG) getting really stuck in to a discussion on Karate - in a forum called karateforums.com!

Is there a Bujin Bugai Jutsu forum that I can get involved in to even the keel as it were?

sojobo

You forgot GS. You make a good point, though. We tend to belong more in the general, combative, grappling and weapon sections. Though I think TG still views himself more as a karate/ jiujutsu practicioner. His striking still has a very Kempo Karate flavor to it. I don't think the thought had really crossed his mind that maybe it's not exactly "karate" anymore till I made that point.

[MasterPain]

Now that I think of it, this is KARATEforums, in the KARATE section, why are there 4 of us and like 2 of you?

Chewbacca lives on Endor.

[tallgeese]

Just had a thought.

Here's you three Bujin Bugei Jutsu lads (MP, LP And TG) getting really stuck in to a discussion on Karate - in a forum called karateforums.com!

Is there a Bujin Bugai Jutsu forum that I can get involved in to even the keel as it were?

sojobo

You forgot GS. You make a good point, though. We tend to belong more in the general, combative, grappling and weapon sections. Though I think TG still views himself more as a karate/ jiujutsu practicioner. His striking still has a very Kempo Karate flavor to it. I don't think the thought had really crossed his mind that maybe it's not exactly "karate" anymore till I made that point.

All very true, MP. Very true.

I still do view myself as that. I am; however, very glad that the art has evolved down in your area since I left. Just as I'm glad that my version of it has evolved since I left.

[tallgeese]

...

See, I'm not anti-kata in the right setting.

and I've no issue with combat preparedness in the right setting either. I just don't think they cancel each other out. Each aspect of the art informs the other. It may be convenient to think improvements in one's kata doesn't influence one's bankai or kumite but that doesn't make it true.

 

That said, life's put too much trouble within range for me to deny that being mindful of going limbic during practice is worth the effort but that's really not too much of a stretch. I kind of do it anyways. ("you get one twitch - make it good") I'll keep those books in mind, although I still haven't picked up my own copy of Nishiyama's book so it'll probably have to wait.

It's not my argument that they cancel each other out or that absolutely nothing can be learned from patterns. My point has more to do with time management and training effectiveness. I don't have unlimited training time, nor would I imagine do most people training for sd. Given that, I really have to maximize what I'm doing by picking clubs that work in the most realistic, transferable drilling available.

[xo-karate]

I have mixed feeling about kata - and karate also:-) I've done karate for most of my life and most of the time as an instructor. So I've taught my share of kata's - as a collection of movements:-) I've never really thought that compinations in a kata would have any use in sparring or self defence. (I don't think about self defence as a very important reason to do karate.)

At the moment I am researching to make my own "kata". Kata that has moves I need for my training. I've noticed that it's far more difficult than I thought it would be. Also there are many points of views (aspects of training) that a kata can be for: breathing, balance, coordination, speed, compination and range of movement.

So my take for a kata is choreographed "shadow boxing" that should include the understanding of the movements (bunkai). Often bunkai is shown as multible attackers and the technique applied during bunkai demonstration is different than in the kata? Why would you practise "wrong" moves? Or is a kata just a "tea ceremony" to honor tradition?

[Jissen]

"without kata you don't have karate, all you have are athletics and tricks" Wade Chroninger