When in Rome...

[evergrey]

OSU,

Recently I had an experience that left me rather puzzled.

My dojo has an event called "open sparring." At that time, we open our doors to any style of martial artist to come and play. Unlike our more formal classes, open sparring is a friendly, casual event that has very little in the way of hierarchy or protocol. The atmosphere is more like a gym than a dojo. Because there are people of so many different styles, it would be silly to demand that everyone follow a bunch of strict rules. It's kept simple- leave your ego at the door, no shoes on the mat, don't trash the dojo, don't be nasty to one another, and don't purposefully harm one another- keep it friendly.

The highest ranked person there, as far as I know, is the 5th dan head instructor of my school. At this event, he shows up in shorts and a rashguard, as do most participants, since at open sparring a lot of people grapple in addition to doing stand-up.

We get all kinds of styles- Kyokushin of course, BJJ, wrestlers, boxers, Wing Chun, GoJu-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, WuShu, Shotokan, Muay Thai, just so many kinds!

Now, the other thing is that my dojo has a sense of humor. We are comrades in arms. We train together, sweat together, bleed together. We train hard. We affectionately tease a bit. At rankings, tournaments, and open sparring it's very acceptable to shout advice out to anyone fighting, as a form of support and encouragement. At Open Sparring, this is especially the case. Someone well-known might suddenly get dogpiled, or the GoDan will stand up and say "YOU! Fight! After school, 3 O'clock in the parking lot!"

Ed Gruberman quotes have been known to fly around, haha.

So here's what happened. I invited some friends to come to Open Sparring. One was a Shotokan Nidan.

Since she was especially a friend of mine, while I recorded her fighting (knee is still healing) I called out bits of encouragement. "Catch his leg if he leaves it out there!" "Keep your guard up!" "Uh oh!" Of course, others did as well.

When this nidan watched the videos and heard me, she got very offended because I am a 7th Kyu in Kyokushin, and she is a Nidan in Shotokan, and in her dojo someone below her rank would never speak out of turn. I was told that since I hadn't proven myself sparring her, I was coming off as ignorant and disrespectful. I was told I would have to prove myself, and that because of my insolence I would be taught a lesson, essentially. I was also told that I came off as trying to intimidate her!

Now this, to me, came off as a challenge. Me, I only want to spar my friend in a friendly fashion. Open Sparring is a friendly even, it's where we play around. Yeah, to an extent we test our styles against each other, but only in the form of learning and having fun. Now I am hesitant to spar this person, because I feel like it might have to be taken to a level that isn't appropriate for the event. And anyway, just a 7th kyu... I kind of feel like I would need to do my best to take her down in order to protect myself. That is what one does in a challenge situation, right? Not something I want to do, especially with a friend.

The other thing that bothers me though is that this person was a guest that I invited to my dojo. She has no rank in Kyokushin, and seemed to expect me to act as if I should behave exactly as a 7th kyu in her Shotokan school should behave towards her. I have no rank in her style, but she has no rank in mine. I have respect for all people, as a baseline, and I certainly respect the accomplishments of others, but... I think it's wrong to go to someone else's school as a guest and be offended that they do not adapt their school's culture to the culture of your own school... especially since I and all the others follow the president of behavior laid out by the owner of my school, and my intentions were nothing other than being friendly and offering moral support, in the style of my own training and dojo.

She also didn't speak to me about it directly, but had her friend lay it all out to me instead, with her there nodding along. She did not bring the issue up with my instructor either.

When you visit a different school, especially of a different style, do you expect them to treat you and act like the people in your own school would? Or, when in Rome, do you do as the Romans do? Or, was it ignorant of me to treat her like I wold my dojo family? That may well have been too presumptuous on my part. Was the response I got appropriate? I'll readily admit that I bumble around in the world of Martial Arts protocol all the time.

Thoughts?

Had any experiences with guests, or with being a guest, that you'd like to share?

OSU

[MasterPain]

Who cares about Rome? This is America. It's our Constitutional right to speak out of turn. I say reevaluate the friendship with a heavy dose of retro McCarthyism. Given her opinions of social status, I suspect she's a Tory Loyalist.

[Groinstrike]

First of all, this sounds like a blast, where do i sign up!!!

Second of all, i wouldn't let it bother you, you invited her to your dojo.

Maybe you should talk with here and explain that you meant no discrespect.

That being said it would certainly erk me if someone who i didn't know, and was new to the dojo tried to teach me how to fight, but this doesn't seem like the case in your situation. On the same token, if someone who i have trained with and knows my game, sees something that i can improve on im all ears.

The same could be said for someone who is a known and respected teacher or coach. Im not going to get upset if Dan Gable critiques my double leg.

[sensei8]

To me, it's quite apparent that this Nidan FORGOT that this is "OPEN SPARRING", and from what you've said here, formality takes a back seat, which this Nidan forgot about as well.

Ranks a privilege and honor, not a right.

I don't see that you did anything wrong here Ev, especially since everyone in attendance was explained to about what "OPEN SPARRING" means at your dojo.

More importantly, everyone who's not a student/instructor at your dojo is a guest and guests are required to act professional and the like.

Ranks can cloud up everything, and many believe their own press more than they should. A Nidan challenging a Blue belt is inappropriate, imho, because when a Nidan challenges a Blue belt, it's like me challenging the paper boy.

Hang in there Ev...it's all good!!

[MasterPain]

I think I've seen the video of this. Everyone was having fun at the time. It would be silly to get upset later.

[evergrey]

LOL, OSU! The paperboy! I love it, Bob!

Groinstrike- are you ever in the San Francisco Bay Area? Our event is once a month, generally. I'm sure you'd be welcome to come on down! The more the merrier!

MasterPain- you get 5 internets points for that, sir.

Also, did you see the pants leg takedown? lol!

[Ashigeru]

She came to a dojo that wasn't hers under invitation.

She took offense when none was intended.

Whether you are "proven", or not, if you were trying to be helpful by pointing things out to her, it should be taken as it was meant. That is disrespectful to you and to your dojo to take well meaning advice as being disrespectful and as using intimidation tactics. I can't see how she got that out of what was said.

All of the schools that I have visited have always been polite to me. I always understood that it was their place, and their rules of etiquette. I was the guest. To have been upset over them not treating me as I would normally be treated in my dojo would have been insulting to the school that I was a guest of. Your friend seems to have forgotten that she was a guest, and blamed you for not being treated as she would in her dojo. As a Nidan, she should have known better. As a Sensei in her own right, she should have known better, and apologized for not leaving her ego at the door in the first place.

By challenging you for your "insulting" her, and for your use of "intimidation" tactics, she has placed herself within the rank structure of the dojo that she is visiting. That isn't a thing a guest does. Protocal wise, it is an insult to your Shihan, as well as your instructors, as it places her within the rank structure of your dojo without their permission...

I will be discussing these things with her when I see her next.

[sensei8]

She came to a dojo that wasn't hers under invitation.

She took offense when none was intended.

Whether you are "proven", or not, if you were trying to be helpful by pointing things out to her, it should be taken as it was meant. That is disrespectful to you and to your dojo to take well meaning advice as being disrespectful and as using intimidation tactics. I can't see how she got that out of what was said.

All of the schools that I have visited have always been polite to me. I always understood that it was their place, and their rules of etiquette. I was the guest. To have been upset over them not treating me as I would normally be treated in my dojo would have been insulting to the school that I was a guest of. Your friend seems to have forgotten that she was a guest, and blamed you for not being treated as she would in her dojo. As a Nidan, she should have known better. As a Sensei in her own right, she should have known better, and apologized for not leaving her ego at the door in the first place.

By challenging you for your "insulting" her, and for your use of "intimidation" tactics, she has placed herself within the rank structure of the dojo that she is visiting. That isn't a thing a guest does. Protocal wise, it is an insult to your Shihan, as well as your instructors, as it places her within the rank structure of your dojo without their permission...

I will be discussing these things with her when I see her next.

Solid post!!

[evergrey]

OSU, Sensei!

I am once again proud to be your student!

and Bob, you have inspired me! This is for you!

http://www.niceboots.org/~evergrey/Kyokushin/Trololol/paperboy.jpg

[sensei8]

ROFL...

Thanks Ev....I loved it!!