TKD and Shotokan

[Kensai]

I was just reading about the great life of general choi in this mouths issue of "combat" magazine.

 

I was just wondering what you people thought are the key difference's in techniques betweeen TKD and Shotokan.

 

Thanks.

[Shaolin]

In my experience and from what I have learned both systems are actually identical in most respects and although it's been a while since I researched this, I think the characters in the respective names have similarities as well and the origins of both systems.

 

The core forms or kata are nearly identical but the Shotokan people often call the TKD stances lazy because they are higher than the Shotokan counterparts.

 

In other respects the styles have diverged with the TKD favoring, in most cases the kicking while Shotokan people are using more of a 50/50 mix with feet and hands despite the fact that, if I am not in error Tai Kwon means hands and feet. Some families may still use a 50/50 mix and I would guess that closer to the beginning of the systems beginning this was more common.

 

Something else both systems seem to have in common, at least in my experience, is that very few if anyone teaching these systems seems to know what the forms or kata are for or how to apply them - this also goes for the traditional blocking and punching, though it is drilled in both systems it is rarely if ever seen in 'sparring'. In sparring another difference is that the TKD people often can be seen jumping up and down as if on a trampoline while the Shotokan people will often be seen standing in deep wide stances.

[Karateka_latino]

I did both.

 

Taekwondo came from the blend of taekyon and Shotokan. General Choi was a 2 degree bb in Shotokan. So obviously they share similar techniques.

 

Now, its not easy to switch from on to the other. At least, to me, it wasn't all that easy.

 

They have the same basic techniques, but principles change. Shotokan have a diferent hip twist, the stances are wide and favor the hand techniques. TKD have upright stances, favor kick work, and the hip rotation is oposite to Shotokan.

 

just my 2cents.

[ramymensa]

Some months ago I thought TKD stinks. Sorry ... was stupid.

 

I do Shotokan and I've learned any style should be respected and I guess TKD is OK. Anyway, we shotokan practitioners should be greateful, because we had something to learn from the other style.

 

Back in the 70's shotokan used even less kicks than now. I've seen some clips from the championships. They used low guards and almost no kick.

 

Nowadays ... we have some high kicks ... and I wonder where have we got inspired from

[hobbitbob]

In the older TKD schools (i.e.: instructors trained before 1975 or so) there seems to be little difference. Since then, many TKD schools seem to emphasize what to a Japanese Karateka would be considered poor technique (bouncing up and down between techniques (i.e; "sine-wave"), poor stances, little to no targeting of techniques (from a new student Thursday who had studied elsewhere : "But I though all kicks were supposed to be to the head?"), poor guard, lack of defensive techniques, lack of consistancy in basic techniqu, etc...

 

I wonder how much of this is the result of twenty or so years of commercial "kuhrotty" schools that used the TKD forms and point sparring technique, and used the ability of mom's cheque to clear as criteria for grading?

[ZakariRu]

I dont know about all of that. (not kicking in the 70s)

 

If you look at all the older japanese jka guys they have been hookkicking and spinning kicks to the head since the first all japan karate tournament.(58,59) Its the europeans and americans who had this crazy idea that only reverse punches and front kicks could score.

 

I say tkd is bad jka shotokan with bad stances and sloppy basics where the forms wore changed (someone didnt know the bunkai apparantly either) and history was altered.

 

Tang so doo(yes its a school of tkd) has all the same poomse as Shotokan! they spell bassai with a P and call most of them by okinawan names.

 

Many of my friends are tkd stylist, and i started in taekwondo. My kumite coach also started out in TSD and changed to shotokan later. So im not totally biased in my opinions....

[John G]

It is indeed unfortunate that the popularity of Taekwon-Do and martial arts in general has lead to an increase of Mc Dojos throughout the world. Many of you may know of, or yourselves unwittingly been a member of one of those clubs.

 

The other common mistake people make is that there is a distinct difference between WTF and ITF Taekwon-Do. WTF for the most part (as there are many WTF clubs that teach self defence) could be considered a sport, an Olympic sport in fact.

 

ITF on the other hand is a modern martial art that has only been around for about 47 years. General Choi (the founder of ITF Taekwon-do) gathered together several Korean Grand Masters / Masters and developed Taekwon-Do.

 

The purpose of this, was to develop a martial art that could be taught to the newly formed Korean Army to counter Japanese Karate in hand to hand combat.

 

Remembering that Korea was annexed by Japan in 1910 and had been under Japanese rule up until the end of the Second World War. All of the people who were gathered together (persuaded) to develop this new martial art were experts in their own fields albeit Korean/Japanese Karate and or Chinese martial arts.

 

Taekwon-Do is based around Shotokan Karate with some Chinese methodologies and movements included. We are taught the application and purpose of each punch, strike, kick, grab, throw or joint lock we apply (as I'm sure many of you true martial artist regardless of code are also taught).

 

Our stances, (and I know only 15 to my level of 1st degree [4 preparation and 11 application]) are generally higher than that of traditional Karate, this is for greater mobility at the expense of stability, or so it seems.

 

As many of you know, when delivering a strike or punch it is imperative that it is done from a stable platform to maximise power, try punching an heavy bag on your tip toes, then try punching the same bag on a low wide stance with your feet firmly planted on the ground you will notice the difference in how far the bag moves.

 

The only problem with a low wide stance is mobility (BTW this is one of our stances). Now try this, get a set of bathroom scales (the analogue type, you cant see this on a digital set), now quickly lower you center of gravity (drop your mass). What you see is your weight increase for an instant.

 

This is ONE of the principles behind the sine-wave motion (bouncing up and down between techniques). We increase our stability not by having lower center of gravity (although this happens to a certain extent) but by increasing our mass (weight) at the point of contact. There is a downside to this, as we move up our mass decreases making us venerable to attack for an instant.

 

Of course you have to include action reaction, breath control, concentration of force and focus of mind in one single co-ordinated action to a given vital point using the appropriate attacking or blocking tool. But everyone does that.

 

Now I know I have over simplified both Taekwon-Do and Karate stance techniques and apologise if I have offended anyone.

 

All I'm trying to point out is that ITF Taekwon-Do isn't just a few flashy kicks, nor is it Karate with bobbing up and down thrown in. Its is a martial art that has its roots in karate (something I'm proud of admitting) and one that its dynamically changing to keep pace with more efficient ways of hand to hand combat.

 

General Choi stated in the 1980s that he had completed the development of Taekwon-Do, and that it was up to future Grand Masters and Masters to continue the legacy and improve Taekwon-Do.

 

Now, no one dared to change anything (out of respect) while he was alive, however now that he has regrettably passed on, our art will continue to develop and evolve, hopefully under the guidance of his Son Master Choi Jung Hwa and other Grand Masters and Masters alike.

 

Hopefully this has given you a small insight to our martial art. I would appreciate it if you could direct questions to us ITF Taekwon-do practitioners if you have any questions about our art, rather than saying it's a load of rubbish, or my art is better than your art because I saw some bloke beat up one of your blokes in a sparring match.

 

I may not know the answers to your questions (after all I'm only a lowly 1st degree) however I will endeavour to find an answer for you from my Master or from other ITF Taekwon-Do practitioners on the Internet.

 

BTW. We didn't exactly invent sine-wave motion, have a closer look at (of all arts) Tai Chi.

 

Respectfully,

[KickChick]

Thank you John ... well done!

 

Actually our school's style of tae kwon do is traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do ... ( but for those who aren't aware of the history associated with the kwans it is easier to say ITF-style TKD) We are now associated with the ITU .... which is traditionally based TKD.

[John G]

You are correct KickChick,

 

My appologies, You're probably better off with ITU than that of ITF with all its political in fighting. Less than 12 months ago we had only one ITF, now we have ITF Vienna, ITF Canada and ITF North Korea, what a mess.

 

You must be getting close to your Second-Degree grading, starting to feel a bit Nervoussssss yet?

[KickChick]

Politics sure do stand in the way don't they .... even in the martial arts arena ... I have kept abreast of the goings on in the ITF and do hope that Choi's son fulfill's his father's desire. It is the "honorable" thing to do .... (politics aside)...

 

(Off Topic):

 

.... John, yes I am very close to the "day" .... but I usually tend to be the basketcase days before.... not there yet!