Stripping away..

[ShoriKid]

This is a question inspired in part by the thread below about how many kata are in your system/you know. I say in part because it is also inspired by several long conversations with other instructors with whom I've trained and a couple more senior students.

I absolutely see the value in kata. Too many old practitioners, with strong fighting reputations, believed in the practice of kata(Motobu Choki, I'm looking at you sir). I know the type of good movement they impart and that they can continue to be mined for long periods of time. The concepts contained within kata are worth studying.

Here's the but, and it's a big one. When is enough enough? For several years I've thought that if I were going to really study kata, a handful is all I will have time for, even over years of study. Where do you draw the line at? What do you keep, what do you drop? How many is too many, how many is too few?

As I've said, I've had this talk locally. This is the first time, that I can recall, that I've brought it up to a wider audience. So, to pitch what I call the "radical traditionalist" pose that I've spoken of to a handful of others. Drop the Pinan/Hiean series all together. Keep Naihanchi Ich, perhaps Ni and San, but only perhaps. Then Bassai/Passai, Empi/Wanshu, Kanku/kusanku, Rohai, Chinto, Gojushiho.

That's it. Seven to nine kata total to study. Not 26 or 18 or anything else. Tic them off on your fingers and never take off your shoes to finish counting. But, with a shortened list, you have much more time to devote to depth of study. Good principles of movement and concepts of fighting can be communicated and studied instead of worrying over learning the next thing on this list. Time is spent working those kata, breaking them down into two man drills, learning application and what those applications tell us about how they are meant to be used (the concepts within the kata).

So, kf community, have I lost my mind? A long time ago someone decided that kata was a good vehicle to communicate fighting methodologies with. And, as I said above, I whole heartedly agree with that. But, when did having a garage full of vehicles that you didn't get to learn how to drive become the point and not the ability to make those vehicles preform? In stripping away some of the kata, what do we stand to lose if we have so many that we can't really study them with depth and with earnest effort? And, if it is right to strip away, what is too far? What is not far enough? Is there a happy medium that gives optimal results?

[Liver Punch]

I've been a lifelong opponent of kata. After seeing an affiliate school work on some, I've decided that they aren't all evil. For me, after that experience, the line is drawn with any kata or move there within that cannot be explained by whomever is telling me to do it. If it can be related to something real, sensical, and useful...then I don't mind it.

[Wastelander]

I have found that I, personally, enjoy collecting kata--some for their practical applications and some for the sake of kata. That said, I think that there is certainly a lot of value in studying only a few kata very closely but I also feel that the idea that a person should only learn a set number of kata is limiting. People should be able to learn however many kata they want.

[davehale]

I've had this conversation with my previous sensei. Off the top of my head, I can recall knowing up to 20 kata. But maybe five of those I can barely remember without some practice. Another five I could waddle through with minimal head scratching and another five I could execute just fine. That last five are ones I have ready at competition/grading level. My point is that what is in those slots of five changes from time to time, but thats just how I do it in generalized terms.

I think knowing which kata to leave behind and which to practice depends on the person and what they are training for. What I practice for a tournament will be different from what I practice for a test.

Then there may be some like me, who on every Sunday, practice every kata they know on their own. This helps me not only with physical stamina, but mental stamina in seeing how much I can remember.

The phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. You raise some interesting points but I think there isn't just one answer. I feel knowing your goals for practicing certain kata must be clear, and when you've completed those goals there's nothing wrong with putting those kata to the side to dedicate time to new goals and kata. But that is just my humble opinion.

[Dobbersky]

I've had this conversation with my previous sensei. Off the top of my head, I can recall knowing up to 20 kata. But maybe five of those I can barely remember without some practice. Another five I could waddle through with minimal head scratching and another five I could execute just fine. That last five are ones I have ready at competition/grading level. My point is that what is in those slots of five changes from time to time, but thats just how I do it in generalized terms.

I think knowing which kata to leave behind and which to practice depends on the person and what they are training for. What I practice for a tournament will be different from what I practice for a test.

Then there may be some like me, who on every Sunday, practice every kata they know on their own. This helps me not only with physical stamina, but mental stamina in seeing how much I can remember.

The phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. You raise some interesting points but I think there isn't just one answer. I feel knowing your goals for practicing certain kata must be clear, and when you've completed those goals there's nothing wrong with putting those kata to the side to dedicate time to new goals and kata. But that is just my humble opinion.

I'm wondering IF the fact of the matter is that as one kata is learned the other is left to become part of the new kata as long as it is not a different concept.

For example in Wado Ryu is is stipulated (Sojobo can correct me here) that all Kata leads to Chinto. Thus does this not mean that once Chinto is mastered only Chinto is required as all the techniques found in Chinto can be found in the "lower" kata!!

For me I tell my students that if they are just there for personal training, as long as they practice the higher Kata they will have all that encompasses the style. I have Bassai in my Syllabus and can see many techniques that are in the Pinans, Kushanku and Naihanchi in there too.

excellent thread

OSU!!!!!!!!

[Martial Walrus]

I think you should learn as many as you like as long as you understand the application of each form. The brain has an infinite capacity for memory, so it's not like you have to pick and choose which ones to remember. Of course, you may only have so much time to practice each one, so it may be necessary to set a certain limit. I myself know about twenty forms off the top of my head, but I practice them all regularly and am frequently required to teach them to my fellow students, which really forces me to learn them well.

[sojobo]

For example in Wado Ryu is is stipulated (Sojobo can correct me here) that all Kata leads to Chinto. Thus does this not mean that once Chinto is mastered only Chinto is required as all the techniques found in Chinto can be found in the "lower" kata!!

For me I tell my students that if they are just there for personal training, as long as they practice the higher Kata they will have all that encompasses the style. I have Bassai in my Syllabus and can see many techniques that are in the Pinans, Kushanku and Naihanchi in there too.

excellent thread

OSU!!!!!!!!

Hi Dobbersky,

I'm not too sure it's entirely correct to say that all (wado) kata lead to Chinto.

I would agree that it is most proper to have learnt Seishan before learning Chinto and Naihanchi before Seishan etc., but one is not higher up the "league table" of importance than the other and you should not neglect the practice of any Kata that you have learnt before.

Interesting to note that Otsuka sensei (the founder of Wado) actually pared down the amount of Kata in the system, suggesting that it was not important to learn any kata beyond Chinto. Toward the end of his life he flatly refused to teach any other kata (outside the nominal 9).

If you think about it, the Pinan kata are "preparitory" in the respect that they converge, in the most part, into Kushanku (although I do accept that there are flavour from other kata). So really, if one excludes the pinan kata, Wado only has 4 main kata- Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto.

It is my understanding that these kata all have their particular purposes within wado's pedagogy. They are not the sole reason why they are practiced but...

Kushanku - is practiced for stamina and endurance.

Naihanchi - is practiced for working with inner circular stances which encourage the practitioner to develop sharp, powerful, efficient techniques that can be delivered without the use of large movements.

Seishan - is practiced to further develop inner circular stances with the added dimension of dynamic tension.

Chinto - is practice for balance and the convergence of all of the aforementioned properties.

So, in Wado at least, the practice of Kata is not so much about the collecting of combative techniques (and Bunkai etc), but rather the honing of principles.

That’s why, perhaps, Otsuka felt 9 kata was enough.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

I'm in a more unfortunate spot with forms, where there doesn't tend to be really any application work taught with each. There are some there that I can work with, given a good partner and lots of time, but nothing done in class time. So, we have a form for each rank, as part of curriculum.

This isn't bad, necessarily, either. I still have learned good technical aspects of movement from the forms I've done.

However, I do think there are times when less is more. When you start to dig into the intricacies to lots of forms, it can be tough to give proper attention to so many. However, what is also nice about having so many forms available, is that each student will likley find a few that tend to work better for him or her, in relation to body size and movement style or combinations. This is where it is good to have more, so you can be sure as an instructor to fill the needs of all your students, hopefully.

[sensei8]

If one was to only train/practice just one kata for their entire life, it wouldn't be a wasted life.

[ShoriKid]

I'm not advocating that people not learn as many kata as they want. What I am asking is do we need to keep collecting. And, if we are to be proponents of kata practice with an eye toward functional karate, don't we need to understand what kata are meant to accomplish? Nagamine Shoshin thought you could spend a year on the most basic kata, three to ten years on any of those of "black belt" level. With that in mind, doesn't it make some sense to practice fewer forms, not more?

For myself I'd rather be a pond of great depth, than an ocean a thousand miles wide and one inch deep. I want those I'm teaching to have a chance at depth too. I don't claim to know the answers, have the key to wisdom or anything like that. But, if I'm going to believe in what I'm teaching, and I think you have to believe in what you're teaching, I need to be trying to show and share some of the depth I'm finding. If not, I feel like I'm teaching superficial punching and kicking. That's what drives me to strip away to a core so I can more easily get to the heart of karate.

Or, I could just be rambling on and waxing a bit poetic about punching people in the mouth.