Ground Fighting Conflict

[sensei8]

Whatever happened to the first guy the LEO's tried to arrest? The second guy deserves whatever a court of law gives him.

I'm no LEO expert and in that, I've tons of respect for what they do, and imho, it's to protect and serve, a very dangerous job. Having said that, the officers were out numbered but I heard this once...

Officer Presence! This will do a lot until back-up arrives. However, some civilians don't care one way or another, they react before they think, imho.

It's me, but I guess I would've pulled out my weapon and not my pepper-spray to hold the crowd at bay, but I do understand, the less and most desired method is preferred by any police administration.

I think the officers did what they had to do. No, the one officer had no idea what he was doing on the ground, but he did what he knew. I wonder if it was textbook taught in their academy?!

[sensei8]

All valid points, tg, and one's I've had in mind, as well. The new head DT guy at our academy has some of the BJJ basics he shows, and he did a class for us a few years back in which the moves were introduced, and after drilling, we did some series rolling, doing different postions, reversals, locks, etc. Really simple stuff that could be good stuff to spend time on, and not terribly complex.

Here is the video I was addressing with my DT partner. It was on PoliceOne.com.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.policeone.com%2Fless-lethal%2Farticles%2F4480715-Video-Suspect-wrestles-cop-to-the-ground%2F&h=QAQEnBAnAAQEH7pOU2gDJIKj1fSwW-Wwih64mwwUfv4yBow

This is one of my concerns...Are LEO's properly trained in self-defense? I don't think they are. A LEO out of an academy, imho, has no more experience than a White belt, and, imho, that's well enough to get them in some serious trouble.

What the LEO has, and it's evident in this video, thanks for sharing it with us Brian, is many weapons to choose from when LEO self-defense "skills" doesn't work...like the taser used by this LEO...it stopped all the fight in the suspect. OFFICER PRESENCE....it's a missing element, imho, with many LEO's.

[yamesu]

I agree 100%.

As a predominantly standup fighter, I have tried to never underestimate the effectivness of grappling (being choked out once is akin to being KO'd with a temple punch!). Even if I do think that id have a good chance of punching the heck out of someone before being taken down - the possibility is there, and its not one I would want to face unprepared!

This exact point led me to train judo and BJJ just to learn some basics, and then keep them up. Not as a means to become a highly proficient grappler - just so I can use what little ground skills I have to atempt to stay off the ground. For example, Chuck Liddel was king at using his wrestling to keep the fight standing.

[bushido_man96]

This is one of my concerns...Are LEO's properly trained in self-defense? I don't think they are. A LEO out of an academy, imho, has no more experience than a White belt, and, imho, that's well enough to get them in some serious trouble.

The trouble here is that not all LEOs are training MAs when they become LEOs. They get around 20 or 40 hours of training at the academy, and the rest is really up to the departments to keep up the training, or for the LEO to find the training on his/her own.

The reality of it is that not every officer is going to have the time, money, or resources to devote to full-time MA training, either. We have guys who have done Wrestling in the past, and a few of us have TKD training, and one other I know of did some Karate of some type in the past. It can be tough for some to balance their work and daily lives, let alone trying to add in a Martial Arts class. I wish it were a perfect world, where we could all be in MA classes, but it just doesn't work out that way.

[Kuma]

Great comments by all. One thing I would like to point out for the first video that would have really protected the officers is situational awareness. You can see the second fellow coming from a mile away. If they took the time to scan their surroundings once or twice during that time, they would have noticed his approach and been able to handle the situation a lot more effectively. Instead, they had tunnel vision on the first suspect and got ambushed by the second. Fortunately for the officer who got the worst of it, he just used a fist and not a knife.

[tallgeese]

Like I said, there are plenty of issues to use in training here. Another that has become important for me, is the lack of effectiveness of striking from the cop. It bears repeating here.

A lot of cops, and martial artist as well, work under the "I'll just gouge his eyes out to get him to move" theory of grappling defense. If you watch, you'll notice that the cop on bottom tries a couple of times to fish hook the aggressors eye, and then tries to rake the face and eyes in an effort to get space.

The efforts are easily defeated by the attacker just turning his head. That's it. The super deadly, reality use only eye gouge is defeated. It's because the cop has NO positional dominance before striking. It's a concept that no cops and very few traditional martial artists understand. Striking from negative positions is rarely, if ever, an answer to poor position. In fact, it will usually make things worse.

The best way to defend this position (a position that we can easily see can and will happen) is to out grapple the bad guy.

[bushido_man96]

That's a no-bones about it answer there. A little positional training would go a long way.

[yamesu]

It's because the cop has NO positional dominance before striking. It's a concept that no cops and very few traditional martial artists understand. Striking from negative positions is rarely, if ever, an answer to poor position. In fact, it will usually make things worse.

The best way to defend this position (a position that we can easily see can and will happen) is to out grapple the bad guy.

Precisely. It is a good scenario to explain why strikers should become even-only slightly versed in grappling.

[bushido_man96]

It's because the cop has NO positional dominance before striking. It's a concept that no cops and very few traditional martial artists understand. Striking from negative positions is rarely, if ever, an answer to poor position. In fact, it will usually make things worse.

The best way to defend this position (a position that we can easily see can and will happen) is to out grapple the bad guy.

Precisely. It is a good scenario to explain why strikers should become even-only slightly versed in grappling.

Very much agreed. I believe some of the Gracie Combatives stuff is geared toward getting to draw your weapon while on the ground.