The conundrum of the female knockdown fighter.

[evergrey]

OSU,

I'm hoping I can get a really lively discussion going on here about female karateka who are serious contact fighters.

The first thing that I will say is that there are a good number of women who train in a knockdown style but have no interest in knockdown. Women who just want to get in shape, or something. Women who train for some reason in a Kyokushin dojo, but who do not want to do kumite. This, I admit, not only confuses me, but at times it also irritates me, because every woman who says "I'm a girl, DON'T HIT ME!" or who just doesn't want to fight but doesn't mention gender makes it harder for me to be taken seriously as a knockdown karateka. That's because even if she doesn't state that it's because of her gender, her gender is the first thing that people will notice, and it will re-enforce the whole "women aren't fighters/ don't hit women" thing.

Why do you think some women, or actually, some people, choose to train in a full contact knockdown style for the purpose of physical fitness when there are tons of "cardio kickboxing" places around? In those places, they don't have to constantly say "no please go lighter, just barely touch me!"

The other thing I would like to share, and would love to hear your thoughts on, is this piece of writing I did a while ago:

"I would NEVER fight a woman full contact! I RESPECT women!"

by Evergrey Lokadottr on Sunday, 7 August 2011 at 15:54

So you wish to say to me that you would never fight a woman full contact, because you respect women.

Please, do not tell me this. With these words and this attitude, you wish to make of me a victim. Weak and unable to defend myself, stand for myself. You seek to make a child out of an adult.

You tell me that women have less muscle mass than men of equal size. Yes, this is true, though the percentages vary... and yet, you will fight a man who is smaller than you. You will fight a man who has much less muscle mass than you do. So this is not the truth of the matter.

You do not respect me. You do not see a karateka standing before you. You see a woman, and you see me as less than you are. If you did not, if you respected me, then you would give to me everything you give to the other karateka you face. You would fight me just as hard, so that I could learn just as well. You would not seek to patronizingly instill within me some sense of false-confidence. You would not barely touch me as if I were a shrinking violet or some glass-spun thing to put on a shelf and admire- pretty but useless.

You would also not, as some men do, seek to crush me and beat me down, fighting me way harder than you would a male classmate of the same stature and abilities, to show me that I'm treading in a "man's world" where I am not welcome.

If you respected me, you would face me on the mat as an equal. You would afford me the same courtesy and respect that you would any other fighter. And if I were to bite off more than I could chew, you would allow me to learn that lesson and understand that, as a competent, thinking ADULT, I am capable of making the choice to risk getting hurt. We all take that risk when we step on the mat. We all know that bones are broken fighting, and sometimes people even die.

You don't want to hit me in the chest because you don't want to hurt me. Well, I don't want to kick you in the testicles, but honestly it is not nearly that bad. I'm happy with you not aiming for my nipples, but if you're trying to protect me by never helping me toughen up and learn to soak a blow to the chest? Where will you be when I am walking to my car alone late at night? Will you always be there to stand in front of me and guard me, and do you think that you would always be welcome to do so? Do you think I am perpetually yearning for dependence on others? Do you think that I wish to be weak?

If you truly respect women, then meet me on the mat as an equal. Anything else gives lie to your words.

OSU "

Note that I mention stature there. I do believe that in the dojo, sparring should be appropriate to the situation- fight so that your opponent, with their level of skill and their stature, can still learn something. We don't try to murder one another in class!

But fighting women who ARE serious karateka, who DO want alive, realistic training and sparring, or who DO want to fight in full contact knockdown tournaments, and just barely touching them just because they are female? That does no one any favors at all.

OSU

[MasterPain]

Coddling anyone is disrespectful and counter productive. Go easy enough to not cause injury and hard enough to have realism. I was taught not to hit girls. That's why I never beat any of my girlfriends. Sparring is entirely different. In sparring you are learning to defend yourself against violence. To hit someone like a sissy hurts their skill development. So by being too easy and not providing a decent simulation of an assault, you are in a way responsible if she is ever hurt in an act of violence.

This is from another similar thread. I also think men should be more respectful to women.

[evergrey]

Heh MasterPain, too bad you live in Illinois, I think you'd love our open sparring days! We even have lotsa rolling!

And I agree with you so hard.

[Wastelander]

Well, Ev, I don't know how much real discussion will go on with this because I think that most people on this particular forum would agree with you! I know that I certainly agree--there are different methods of sparring to accomplish different things, but if you are doing knockdown sparring then it should be at the highest contact level that both participants are comfortable with and if you aren't comfortable with that then you shouldn't be doing a knockdown style.

[evergrey]

Today in class, I was partnered for the first time with a new student of ours, who was in IKO2 in Japan for two years. At first, he just touched me with his knuckles. I told him to hit me, and I told him to hit me harder, and harder, and then Shihan came over and every strike the student threw, Shihan told him to go harder. I started blasting him too, to drive in the point. Nothing he couldn't handle, of course. I'm not a bully!

Funny thing is though, once he was actually hitting me, and I was actually hitting him, he started smiling and we started complimenting each other's good strikes. Made me happy!

[MasterPain]

Today in class, I was partnered for the first time with a new student of ours, who was in IKO2 in Japan for two years. At first, he just touched me with his knuckles. I told him to hit me, and I told him to hit me harder, and harder, and then Shihan came over and every strike the student threw, Shihan told him to go harder. I started blasting him too, to drive in the point. Nothing he couldn't handle, of course. I'm not a bully!

Funny thing is though, once he was actually hitting me, and I was actually hitting him, he started smiling and we started complimenting each other's good strikes. Made me happy!

That's the way it should go with a new person, regardless of gender. it is better to start too light and build to a level where everyone is happy, than to start too hard and maybe hurt someone or seem like a jerk. Seeming like a jerk can be hazardous to the new guy's health.

[Shizentai]

I know how you feel. I am a small nerdy stuttering female. Karate aside, when I am simply walking down the street most people don't take me too seriously, even other women sometimes. This has advantages and disadvantages. However, in the dojo things are simple for me. If a man is going too easy on me, I can just make him be serious by kicking him in the gut until he figures out that I am not a dainty flower and starts to defend himself properly. If I think he is going too hard on me, well, I just have to give it my 100% effort and hope I don't get hurt... which so far I haven't.

I have to wonder if those "don't-hit-so-hard" girls are just afraid of the unknown. That sink or swim moment where in training you have to choose between giving up and pushing on past your previous comfort zone is the defining moment for many a karate-ka in their own way.

[evergrey]

OSU to that- fear of getting hurt is pretty deeply ingrained, and most women don't grow up getting a lot of hard contact, unless it's abuse, which is going to deepen the fear.

The thing about a contact style though is that you can use it to work past the fear. You can take the pain and own it, and you can overcome it and move from thinking like a victim to being in control of yourself and your life.

New guy is great, and I really like him- he works hard and his dedicated to Kyokushin! When I made him fold on himself a little bit, he smiled, haha. After that he hit me harder, and it was good. I doubt I'll have any kind of bruising, but maybe when I'm in better shape again and I can partner with the human sledgehammer that we have here in my dojo. ;}

The sad thing is that tonight I found myself being a horrible sexist hypocrite. A female nidan recently came back into training, and I couldn't bring myself to hit her hard. Every time I start hitting another woman hard, I get in trouble! But this is a nidan, you know? And she was a fighter back in the day. I'm just so worried I'll harm her, or that I'll get in trouble. :/ I was watching her facial expressions. She never told me to go lighter or harder...

[JusticeZero]

I do find it frustrating, because it's not just men doing it. It's also women doing this to themselves. It's very difficult to try to push a feminist point over the objections of women against it. I never know what the rules are going to be. If I try to be equal and push, I could be getting in trouble for it. It's confusing, it's unfair, it's crazy-making for the men, and serious women like you are suffering for it.

[Dobbersky]

I have a Female Brown Belt who I like to use to "try out" visiting Karateka - she enjoyed "playing" with a Nidan from the Army Team. Her thigh kicks are awesome. I would love to put her into Competitions but she's happy "training"