Long layoff and planning a return: can I retain my grade?

[sojobo]

Seriously?

Train for the sake of training!!

I get where you're coming from here. I used to really be on board with it. However, after hearing Robson Moura talk about belt rank, I'm not as militant on this as I used to be.

His point, and I think a valid one, is that you shouldn't just go with the "rank isn't important" argument. That belt is important to you. It symbolizes, or should, a whole heck of a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and time; not to mention money. If you've invested that much into a symbol then it should mean something to you and you should want to wear it.

Would you let someone take your B.S. away just because you graduated college 15 years ago and weren't working in the field that your degree is in? Doubtful, nor would anyone expect you to shred it, ignore it, or pretend in didn't exist.

I'm not hung up on grades, one way or another, however I am not sure training toward a "symbol" is the right approach - I like to think I have invested in me!, to become better at MA rather than a symbol to say that I have, personally I don't need that symbol, but I do understand that is important to some.

I also don't like comparing martial arts studies and qualification with that of academia. They are not the same - the processes and measurements are different imo.

In response to sojobo, thank you for your comment and I completely agree and understand your rationale. My interest in retaining my current grade was not driven by any egotistical desire to once again wear the black belt (although this would be nice). I am motivated to continue at this level, so I can be exposed to more advanced concepts and more challenging techniques. Whilst I acknowledge the importance of fundamentals and basic technique, I would be less interested in going back to the start, as I already have a good handle on the basics.

I understand and that is admirable, however any instructor worth his salts would recognise a student’s potential and teach them to the appropriate level.

The belt doesn't (or shouldn't) dictate that - your ability does.

Also, bear in mind that what may be an acceptable standard in one club / association may not be the same in another.

Grades are only really applicable within the group they are awarded - there is no such thing as "generic" black belt standard - even within the same style!!

Sojobo

[tallgeese]

I don't think anyone, including myself, was talking about "training for a grade". I was just stating that sometimes we overstate the "rank isn't important" argument.

Anything we sink time into should be important. If it's not, then we shouldn't be putting time into it. A black belt is difficult to attain and brings a lot of history to the table with it. Why say it's not important?

Everyone puts time into it. That's time away from family, ect. to earn that piece of cloth. It's an important milestone. Not one we should be hung up on, or train solely for, but we should be proud of it. To do otherwise disrespects the instructor who decided to put it around our waist.

Now, we have to remember it's only a symbol. Actual combat relys on the skill and an indeterminate amount of situational factors that are present at the moment that the conflict occurs. That's another story.

[sojobo]

Everyone puts time into it. That's time away from family, ect. to earn that piece of cloth. It's an important milestone. Not one we should be hung up on, or train solely for, but we should be proud of it. To do otherwise disrespects the instructor who decided to put it around our waist.

Now, we have to remember it's only a symbol. Actual combat relys on the skill and an indeterminate amount of situational factors that are present at the moment that the conflict occurs. That's another story.

I do understand what you are saying, and maybe we are kind of on the same wavelength, but I think it is mind set here.

I am proud of what I have achieved - and that is just to become better.

I don't need anything to demonstrate that - I feel it and more importantly -realise it.

Sojobo

[dragonwarrior_keltyr]

I know that we've had a few returning black belts at my dojo. They keep their belt, but often they take some of the beginner classes to catch up. I think the only snag would be if you wanted to grade for your 2 dan right away.

[sensei8]

If a Shindokan student returns to their dojo or the Hombu after a long absence, they must test for their last recorded rank before permitted back onto the floor under that umbrella. Otherwise, they can wear a white belt and enjoy it. If that person held Godan and up in Shindokan, they must test at the Hombu, and only at the Hombu.

The "rank isn't important" under the proper context can't be overstated enough. For me, RANK ISN'T IMPORTANT, not when it's being compared to knowledge. Knowledge, imho, trumps rank.

[quinteros1963]

IMHO you should retain your grade as you have earned it. Keep in mind it will take a while before you can progress to the next level while you "reboot", but it should all come back to you. As you can see we all have differing opinions, so it will depend on what your instructor says.

[quinteros1963]

Seriously?

Train for the sake of training!!

If your dan grade means that to you - you don't understand what it means to be a dan grade!!

In my group, new students with previous experience in other styles / groups are allowed to wear their belt for 6 months (in order that they can assimilate the ways of the school). After this time, they are asked to "apply" to take an examination for any grade they wish!!

The senior instructors of the association then award them the grade if they see fit, failing this, they will recommend an appropriate grade.

If the applicant doesn't like that - then they’re not for us.

sojobo

I like that way, but here is how it happened for me:

I changed styles almost 3 years ago. I came in with the rank I earned and continued to wear that rank. Started from scratch and it took nearly 2 years before I was promoted to the next rank which was brown belt. The closer I get the more I don't "sweat" rank as for the past 3 years it meant nothing to me. I was the highest ranking student in a beginner and intermediate class and knew the least. Now that I'm caught up (but not yet yudansa) I regularly compete and train with yudansa and hold my own. My personal experience has taught me that rank does not matter, but this is MY experience. You must have you own. As we all should.

[Dobbersky]

Its easy to say that rank is not important once you got it but how many of you would give up your current grade and start again at White Belt? I am sure a few would say they but how many would actually do it!!!

I have many times worn a white belt and coloured belts in styles when I hold Black belts in others!!!

I've 'begun again' so many times but in my school I graded for my Dan grades wearing my 'original' white belt!!!

I challenge you all to wear a white belt for the next month and then tell me its not important. Its a humbling experience and please don't use the "My Sensei won't allow it" excuse

[brickshooter]

Its easy to say that rank is not important once you got it but how many of you would give up your current grade and start again at White Belt? I am sure a few would say they but how many would actually do it!!!

I have many times worn a white belt and coloured belts in styles when I hold Black belts in others!!!

I've 'begun again' so many times but in my school I graded for my Dan grades wearing my 'original' white belt!!!

I challenge you all to wear a white belt for the next month and then tell me its not important. Its a humbling experience and please don't use the "My Sensei won't allow it" excuse

I actually do wear a white belt it very often as I often train in different styles. But I do draw the line if I had to go back to a white belf at a school that I've already trained in.

Funny but I actually have 3 belts in my bag all the time. A white, brown, and black. LoL. Ya never know I guess...

[bushido_man96]

Seriously?

Train for the sake of training!!

If your dan grade means that to you - you don't understand what it means to be a dan grade!!

In my group, new students with previous experience in other styles / groups are allowed to wear their belt for 6 months (in order that they can assimilate the ways of the school). After this time, they are asked to "apply" to take an examination for any grade they wish!!

The senior instructors of the association then award them the grade if they see fit, failing this, they will recommend an appropriate grade.

If the applicant doesn't like that - then they’re not for us.

sojobo

I like how you approach this. I don't think its a bad idea at all. If it were me training with you, though, I'd probably ask your opinion of what level you think I should grade for, as opposed to trying to figure it out myself. I say that because I think it would be tough to take the level of what I've achieved in my current style of training and then try to meld it with whatever level it would equate to in a different style. So I'd just ask for a recommendation.

I get where you're coming from here. I used to really be on board with it. However, after hearing Robson Moura talk about belt rank, I'm not as militant on this as I used to be.

His point, and I think a valid one, is that you shouldn't just go with the "rank isn't important" argument. That belt is important to you. It symbolizes, or should, a whole heck of a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and time; not to mention money. If you've invested that much into a symbol then it should mean something to you and you should want to wear it.

Would you let someone take your B.S. away just because you graduated college 15 years ago and weren't working in the field that your degree is in? Doubtful, nor would anyone expect you to shred it, ignore it, or pretend in didn't exist.

I understand the point tallgeese is making here, and I agree with what he is saying, as well.

This is an arguement that can go either way, and I think that many students spend parts of their MA lives on both sides of the fence. In the beginning, students get excited about the opportunity to grade up, and earn that new belt. Its motivational, and it should be; that's part of the reason the belt system was created. Its also good for setting out requirements for each level of a student's learning. As most students go along in their MA lives, they learn that the belt isn't as important as what it is they have learned, and the experiences that come along with it.

Now, with all this said, how many of us are going to go to our training schools this week, and not wear our belts? How many of us are going to go to our teachers, or Soke's, or HQ, and tell them we choose to no longer wear our belts, because the rank doesn't matter; the knowledge and experience does? And after that, how many of us are going to try to convince our superiors in rank in our schools or organizations to do the same? And how many are likely to go for it? I'm willing to bet not many.

So, even though rank isn't important, it is important.