Probably an repeatedly-asked question (sorry)

[Zaine]

These are good thoughts... thanks... one more question though... what are your thoughts on the systems that don't use kata? the United States military teaches soldiers to fight and doesn't use kata... they repeatedly teach attack and response attack and response... Is there enough to be learned from Kata that it's worth all the time devoted to it? Didn't Bruce Lee even compare Kata to learning to swim on dry land?

If it works it works. A system doesn't need katas to be a good system, look at krav maga for example, an excellent and very deadly system and it doesn't have katas.

That being said, I personally believe that katas are worth it because they work for me, but this is just a preference. In the end it's gonna be about what works for you the best. If that works for you the best then do that, if it doesn't then try something else out until you find the best way for you to drill it in successfully.

I don't know if Bruce Lee said that, but I do know that it is in an excellent book called "The Book of Five Rings" and Musashi isn't talking about kata, he's talking about fighting. The full quote is "Learning how to fight without fighting is like learning how to swim on land." I'm sure Bruce Lee wasn't to ecstatic about kata, since it generally doesn't show up in JKD, but he certainly would have know a plethora of them and he probably saw the advantages of knowing them, he was pretty smart.

[sensei8]

These are good thoughts... thanks... one more question though... what are your thoughts on the systems that don't use kata? the United States military teaches soldiers to fight and doesn't use kata... they repeatedly teach attack and response attack and response... Is there enough to be learned from Kata that it's worth all the time devoted to it? Didn't Bruce Lee even compare Kata to learning to swim on dry land?

I apologize for this thread... I know that this has to be a discussion that has been hashed out a thousand times on here. Thanks for responding.

I've tons of respect for those styles of the martial arts that don't train in Kata, providing what they do teach is effective separate and apart from Kata/Bunkai/Oyo, and in that, whatever they teach isn't dependent on Kata/Bunkai/Oyo either in its parts and/or its whole.

Kata/Bunkai/Oyo is just another aspect of martial arts training that has proven in its effective methods to those who've seriously trained in it.

Yes...all of the time devoted to Kata makes it worth its endeavor because there's so much to learn from training in Kata providing that Bunkai/Oyo is also seriously trained in. Kata without Bunkai/Oyo isn't effective.

Bruce Lee made a lot of statements, and as much as I respect the martial arts of Bruce and many of his statements, I do not agree with his "dry land" theory at all.

[29Bill]

I really enjoy the one-steps and self-defense that we do... I wish that we majored on those and minored on Kata. I like them because they are a prearranged response to certain attacks... and that's really the kind of system I'd enjoy... something that felt more concrete... and less abstract... any idea as to what styles would do that?

[Zaine]

I really enjoy the one-steps and self-defense that we do... I wish that we majored on those and minored on Kata. I like them because they are a prearranged response to certain attacks... and that's really the kind of system I'd enjoy... something that felt more concrete... and less abstract... any idea as to what styles would do that?

Fair enough, but the problem with that is that you have to be careful about pigeon-holing yourself. That is to say, sometimes with one-steps we do them so much that it's hard to imagine any other way to defend against the thing that we've drilled a certain move for, and when they effectively counter that move, we become stuck because that's not part of the training, and that's why I like katas so much because once I know the kata inside and out I have a new set of moves that I know will work against his jab, his counter to my counter and so on.

[MasterPain]

from what you said is available, JKD or Kempo could be good, but what those style names represent can be very broad. It could be awesome, or it could be junk. Check out a class and see if they do the kind of things you're looking for.

Also check out the MMA class. They consistently train in a live manner. Check out a class and see how it feels there. If there is a sense of everyone trying to help each other learn, it could be a great fit for you. They won't do one-steps per se, but it will be a progression from compliant technique to live use of technique and concepts.

[JusticeZero]

Honestly, for what you've said, i'd check the Judo class. Everything MasterPain said above about checking out classes applies there, too.

Kata isn't inherently good or bad. It's a training method. It was a great method for the context; in America it's probably only a pretty good one. You can get "pretty good" in a lot of ways.

[bushido_man96]

It is hard for us to know what the approaches of the styles around you are. There may be a very combative-oriented TKD school, or an Olympic-style sparring one. The Hapkido school may be right up your alley, or you may find it gets too fancy. MMA sparring may be what you are looking for in hand-to-hand interaction with other participants, but they may have competition goals you don't share.

My point is this. If you want to try something different from your current style, go watch any classes that you can in your area to see if anyone is offering what you seek. We can all banter here and tell you what we do, or prefer, but we can't help you with what's in your area. Only you can go do the leg work to check them all out. If I were you, that's where I would start.

Let us know how your search goes, and welcome to KF.

[NINE TAIL FOX]

There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Choose the path that suits your personality.

[pers]

Kata is the favourite part of my karate , the whole book of your system is in the katas , as said before its about finding the applications and meaning of the moves and the concept of the particular kata .

In our dojo when started on a kata it took 3 to 4 classes to reach the end , part by part it was broken down ,demonstarted by our sensei and then practiced , only after reaching the end we practiced the whole kata , and the timing and sequence of moves .

I say 2 and half years is good progress but still too early for some students to fully appreciate the value of kata , all that you need in self defence is right in there in the katas for most situations and senarios , you just need a good guide to show you and teach it to you , no disrespect to your current instructor .

The beauty of kata is you can practice them all your life ,keeping your technique and your mind sharp , exercie your internal organs with correct breathing and your muscles ,

you can do that on your own , the benefits are endless and for a life time , you just need to put the hard work and learn them by heart , it is hard work but to me it is enjoyable and interesting , I feel I am in a fight and do the kata like a real fight , I dont care how pretty it looks in full speed and power but how effective it is .

But when I do it slow I try to be as correct as possible .

we had people men and women who travelled about 50 miles regulary twice a week to come to the dojo , some of them 3rd and 4th dans .

If it is wort it make the journey if you can.