please respond,need help

[judobrah]

few achually,there is the karate place(its a gym chain,the same instructor teaches karate at bout places they also teach kickboxing at one of the gym's,a place that teaches mt,self defense and my old school teaches judo,local thing problably is gona end soon and the aikido "dojo"

[JusticeZero]

Let's look at this.

my old school teaches judo,local thing problably is gona end soon

For one thing, why is it going to end? If it's "the teacher is losing the space", but not "the teacher is moving/quitting" then what you are really saying is "There is a judo instructor, who is probably going to be setting up teaching in some other way soon". If you talk to the instructor you'll probably find that they still intend to teach, they just are trying to find a different building to teach out of. (I have a lot of respect for Judo, particularly when I hear complaints like you gave earlier; it's not kata-intensive, it's solidly effective, and they get a lot of hard contact against resisting opponents.)

Second, you will note that I did not ask what you had found. I asked:

• How large, geographically and in terms of population density, of an area are you searching in and able to travel to?
   
  How did you do your search? Internet? Phone book? Asking people? Going door to door?
   
  How long and exhaustive of a search did you do?

The reason I say this is because depending on what method I use to look for martial arts schools in my area, I get a completely different set of results depending on what method I use to look. And even then, when I go to a coffee shop, I usually discover classes being offered in something I was unaware of. If you search in lots of ways, you will probably find that there are a lot more people looking for students in your area than you thought.

The town I was born in, population of less than 10,000, contained or neighbored last time I was there, BJJ, at least two different taiji, two other gungfu styles, a judo club, two different karate schools, a TKD school, and a boxing club. The phone book only showed karate and TKD. Internet showed the -other- karate school, the tkd, and one of the taiji classes. Everything else I stumbled across. It's very possible that I could have missed stuff. Start asking around and checking bulletin boards and looking up random arts' practitioner lists.

[Cayuga Karate]

My responses to Zaine’s post are below:

It [nukite/spear hand] isn't just theoretical, it's practical or it wouldn't be in a kata that has been around for quite a long time.

I do agree that this movement that we call nukite is likely very old, centuries old. It is in a number of forms that descend from a shipwrecked Chinese named Kusanku, who passed them down in the mid-to-late 1700s. There is a reason he taught nukite and other movements to Okinawans. He was a military authority, and so was likely to be familiar with a broad range of combative arts, some of which may have been developed hundreds of years earlier.

Nukite exists not only in Kusanku and Pinan Shodan, but also Pinan Sandan, as well as various versions of Gojushiho and Seinchin (and probably other kata as well). One thing is certain. There is no historical record we can trace back to show what applications Kusanku taught the Okinawans he trained. The same is true regarding the Chinese person who is believed to have taught Itosu the Channan precursors of the Pinan. The origin of Seinchin is even in doubt. And we have no clue who brought Gojushiho to Okinawa.

However, even if we did have these records, there is certainly no record of when these movements were devised, by whom, and especially why. This is due, in large part, to the iron-clad secrecy in which these combative arts were handed down.

When it comes to these old Chinese forms, we have but two things. One is the kata themselves. In addition to the kata, we have speculation about what the movements mean. That's it. Anyone who says that they have certain knowledge that along with the kata, specific applications were handed down, is simply not telling the truth. Every application of every movement in these old Chinese kata is nothing more than an assumption.

If a key goal of training in kata is to develop better fighting, then the practice of applications (commonly called bunkai) is essential. There are applications that can lead to better fighting, and there are applications that appear to have little in common with fighting. There is a broad range in between.

Your teacher, and many others, speculate that these nukite movements are, or must be, fingertip strikes to the abdomen. This is an assumption. Anyone can make any claim they want. The question is to what extent this is useful in fighting.

There are other assumptions regarding how to use nukite including a number of ways that this movement can be used that do not involve fingertip strikes to the torso.

The Pinan Shodan that I do has the finger tip strike to the torso, and it doesn't take a decade or two to condition your fingers to withstand a strike like that. With the Pinan, the strike is to the diaphragm, so as to knock the wind out of the opponent.

We kind of have a "he said", "she said" scenario. I claim that this movement, to be effective, takes many, many years of finger conditioning. You say it doesn't. You have the ability to provide evidence. You could you post a video say, of sparring between you and a larger person, say 25% heavier, where you hit them in the torso with your fingertips, and achieve some desired result. I think this kind of proof would go a long way to convincing the martial arts community that this strike makes any sense.

A fingertip strike would also be useful for getting in between the ribs.

I would imagine the probability of an attacker having a shirt on is quite high. If you cannot see the rib cage, it is incredibly difficult to accurately strike between the ribs. In a fight with a moving, clothed opponent, the chances of striking a rib, with your fingers, are very high, and without incredible conditioning, this would likely do more damage to the person doing the strike than receiving it.

The nukite in Pinan Shodan comes at the end of a "directional sequence" where one takes three (or four depending on how you count) steps forward, three of which have shuto movements.

The real issue here, in my opinion, is why this sequence of movements was passed down. How would one use the entire direction in a way that was effective in an empty handed fight. The nukite to the abdomen is just a piece of the whole.

For a number of systems that do practice bunkai, an attacker steps backwards while striking to the abdomen, while the defender, steps forward blocking, and finally, charging forward with a finger strike straight strike to the abdomen. In the link below, there are three segments of bunkai. The first is Pinan Shodan applications practiced by a Shorin Ryu system of the Chibana lineage (nukite directional sequence from :05 to :09). The second is Heian Nidan applications practiced by Shotokan group (nukite directional sequence from :33 to :37). The third is a presentation of Kusanku applications by a Matsubayashi group. (which contains a shuto sequence from 1:08 to 1:12 and a Nukite at 1:40.)

http://youtu.be/zwWj29CY180

The fighting scenarios that these systems portray in their applications of Pinan shodan/Kusanku movements are, to be blunt, not realistic. Fights don't develop this way. Period. In general, attackers attack. And when they need to retreat, they retreat. However, it is far-fetched to believe that an attacker is likely to retreat in set stances while punching simultaneously punching to the abdomen. But for a moment, let's ignore the full directional sequences that end in nukite and look just at specific technique of nukite to the abdomen. Anyone who trains in a striking oriented system where head strikes are permitted, knows that having one hand at your hip and one hand at the opponent's abdomen is a foolish idea since your head is just completely exposed. In actual fights, a trained fighter literally prays for this kind of scenario, and would be eager to take the opportunity to hit an opponent several times in his woefully unprotected jaw/nose/neck/temple.

Here’s a UFC 2011 knockout highlight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NsjY3ur9iw

In this clip there are a whole bunch of examples of why it is fundamentally essential to protect your head. The applications shown in the kata above do not map to this kind of fighting. Yet this kind of fighting is often fairly representative of fighting in general. Here’s a clip of a fight of a big guy, with little skill attacking a smaller guy, and universally, he strikes to the head.

People argue often about the benefits of training in MMA, or TMA. But one thing we should all recognize is that if something works, with relatively little training, then someone will exploit it in MMA competitions. Regarding nukite, in the era pre-MMA, you couldn't make that argument. Boxers were big gloves around wrapped fists, and therefore are incapable of finger strikes. MMA gloves, on the other hand, fully permit finger strikes to the abdomen. If they worked, they would be used. And in lots of MMA, fighters are of relatively equal weights. In fact, there are heavier fighters and they don't choose to use them against lighter fighters.

To say that it is foolish for a teacher to teach a student a technique is not only silly, but incredibly closed minded.

That statement, of course, depends on the technique. Many, if not most students come to karate in large part to learn to fight better. That's a major, if not the major goal. A teacher should try, as best they can, to meet these needs, over time. If a teacher shows a student a movement that, a. has a very low probablity of achieving the desired result, and b. can seriously injure the fingers of the student, and 3. leaves the student's head wide open to punishing counterattack, AND the teacher tell the students this is a useful technique in a real fight, then I would say that that teacher is incredibly close minded. That teacher has, it seems, taken lessons from another teacher, and without question, passed them on as useful. There has been no attempt to apply simple logic to the movement in question. The teacher is blindly passing on foolish ideas despite the obvious evidence that finger strikes to the abdomen, with one hand at the hip, is simply a rediculously foolish idea to pass on to students who come to learn how to better defend themselves.

Anyone who wants to argue otherwise, should provide evidence, and not just rhetoric. In the age of UFC, and all sorts of full-contact venues, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. These techniques are not used because they don't work.

-Cayuga Karate

[judobrah]

well the judo instructor is about 50-60,he is a gym class teacher in that school and teaches judo part time,hes getting preety tired of teaching judo(the dude competed),i really dont think he cares anywore to be honest,i mean the first class is me,him,wowen that is a judo bb(she trained for 10 years)+20 anoyng kids,there is this brah who goes there sometimes,then there is adult classes e.t.c,i researched for more then 5 months for a kr school,internet checkin places e.t.c,will look at more places,thanks

[Zaine]

Cayuga I think that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I've seen it work, having a larger sensei than myself who trained me on how I would need to do it to make it work, but clearly you're very adamant about your position and I'm the same about mine.

I would like to point out that this is a forum, where rhetoric is kinda the idea.

[Zaine]

Cayuga I think that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I've seen it work, having a larger sensei than myself who trained me on how I would need to do it to make it work, but clearly you're very adamant about your position and I'm the same about mine.

I would like to point out that this is a forum, where rhetoric is kinda the idea.

[Zaine]

white

Of course they're gonna hold things back. You don't learn all the secrets in your first couple of months. You're also too worried about how other people are doing. Be worried about how you're doing.

[judobrah]

they?i have been training for years brah,condition and lifting that is, but i started to train martial arts one year ago,because of my condition i was easly able to learn stuff,the instructor is a brow belt and there are only 10 litle kids,a 13 year old orange belt and me afcourse,its not to son to spar or at less have some dam drills when they are ofering resistance,i mean i can take a punch but i am shure as hell the kids cant,because they dont even now how to trow a damm front kick or a damm punch,chers

[judobrah]

i am upset because this is wasting money away, i mean ALL me do on class is kata,drills at a very slow speed,more kata,kicks in the air,kata and some push ups i mean i miss contact,at judo it was rough but there was a lot of physicalaty and sparring,and even if there was some more people i think the teacher woudnt let us spar because of soccer moms,are 10 years old fat kids that dont know how to kick above the ankes but are already high belts our future instructors,btw good responses in here thanks brahs

[Zaine]

The go somewhere else where they have that, or find a place where there is sparring and go to the one you're at as well. However, any school is going to drill all of those things more than they will sparring. If you're going to take a traditional martial arts, you're going to be doing a lot of drills and kata.