karate for kids?

[laneyg]

We recently enrolled our 5 year old son in the Tiny Tigers program with "Karate for Kids" with the ATA. We pay $80 a month and the instructor is very good with the kids. My son loves him and the in the last couple of months, we have really seen our son's confidence level go up. They work the kids hard and I can tell it's a good workout for him too.

However, I recently stumbled upon the term, "McDojo" and feel fairly certain we are at one. There are upgraded classes like the Leadership program or the Black Belt Club, etc.

The kids move up in belt rank about every 2 months. I think a 10 year old kid could be a black belt easily. This never seemed quite right to me even before I learned about McDojos.

They had belt testing last night and every kid passed. Even the ones who laid there like a slug. Now I can SORT OF understand in the Tiny Tigers program - maybe moving everyone up to build confidence or something. I'm not sure when the kids are moved to the next program if the testing is harder. I hope so.

So, in the Tiny Tigers, there are white belts and green belts and "camo belts??" all learning the same moves for testing. Again, I hope this is not what older students do. Wouldn't a higher belt want/need to be learning different things than a lower belt student?

We actually love the school. As I said, the instructor is great with the kids and they are learning. I think just like in regular school, the kids who have parents who push them to do well, will do well. The kids who's parents allow them to just lay there won't get much out of it.

But.... maybe this is fine for our 5 year old son. It's getting him active and building confidence and it's fun. Are we going to regret it when he's older and really doesn't actually KNOW martial arts?

What age will a “good” school even accept a student? Is 5 too young?

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks so much!

[MaxMarks]

So, I've been in the Martial arts for about 30yrs and have trained and taught all my life in a local dojo. My 13 year old son is a black belt in that same school. He failed his black belt test the first time he took it. I just posted the story in my blog https://www.lifeskillsfromthedojo.com if you care to read it.

What age will a “good” school even accept a student? Is 5 too young?

I think you're right on about the tots program in that it's okay to give rank for attendance vs. skill level. At that age it is more about building their confidence. We will evaluate a child at 5. In our opinion some are ready and some are not.

In the youth programs kids should be held to certain standards of performance to pass their test. A good dojo will handle this in a age appropriate way. "We can't give you your belt today but if you go home and work on these things and can show me in two weeks that you can do them we'll look at you again." You get the idea. The lessons learned from failure can far out weigh the ones learned by success. If you read the story of my son failing you'll see that I wouldn't have had it any other way.

I would encourage you to talk to the instructors at your school. If your gut is telling you that it may not be a fit for your family then you owe it to yourself to at least explore further. I wouldn't bail on the school, however, without giving them a fair chance to explain how they work. If your gut is still telling you its not right then maybe it time to search for a dojo the fits your family better. What it boils down to is the experience your child has and the value that adds to his life.

Good luck! I hope that helps.

[Wastelander]

It certainly sounds like a McDojo, to me. For most students at your son's age this type of program is just fine, but I have seen some students as young as 3 take to martial arts very well and very seriously, and this would not work for them.

Talk to the instructor about the progression and curriculum for older students. If you don't feel the program is going to be a good fit as your son gets older, then there is no reason to stay, even if you like the instructor--there are certainly other likeable instructors out there. If your son is going to train in a striking art and isn't going to be learning how to actually hit something (pads, punching bags and people) when he gets older then he might as well be learning dance--it may be fun and will keep him in shape and give him confidence, but he won't have much actual use for it.

As for when a "good" school will accept students, that is a point of contention among martial artists. Both my previous dojo and my current dojo both accept children at the age of 3 and ran them through their own class for 3-5 year olds. We make them meet the same rank requirements as everybody else, although we obviously don't expect them to be perfect, and if they do well and take it seriously then they will be able to attend the regular youth classes with the older kids.

[laneyg]

I just posted the story in my blog https://www.lifeskillsfromthedojo.com if you care to read it.

That is a great story! I'd be proud of my son for an attitude like that - you're a great dad!

If your son is going to train in a striking art and isn't going to be learning how to actually hit something (pads, punching bags and people)

Now they DO punch and kick pads and bags. Not people. (Yet?) So is this a good sign?

I wouldn't bail on the school, however, without giving them a fair chance to explain how they work.

I'm a little nervous because I am so new to to the world of Martial Arts, I think they could very easily dazzle me with words on the way they do things. But you're right, we will follow our gut!

but I have seen some students as young as 3 take to martial arts very well and very seriously

I know what you mean. And I sort of feel like my son really could get into this and take it seriously. He has really good focus in class and I can tell he enjoys it and tries his best. That's one of the reasons that I might be worrying a little more than maybe I should be!

We signed a year long contract so we have until next August, and I suppose we will just see where we're at at that point. I this year will be enriching and fun for him in the mean time.

Thanks so much!

[Liver Punch]

I'm originally from a small are and now live in a small/medium sized city. I think in both places, I would have a hard time finding quality instruction for a 5 year old. Our school just started a legitimate BJJ class for kids, but other than that...they're few and far between.

My first priority would be finding quality instruction. As an MMA/Combative focused person, this would probably fall into either tiny-tot wrestling or BJJ for little kids. But, if nothing else were available, I'd gladly start them in a good TKD, Karate, or other traditional art.

If none of that were available, and a semi-McDojo were available, I might very well consider it until they could become enrolled in a legitimate school. At 5 years old, a martial artist should be looking to gain discipline, balance, coordination, be part of physical activity, learn Dojo Etiquette, how to put on a uniform properly, and learn the difference between good touch and bad touch.

If a McDojo can provide all of those things for a child between the ages of 5 and whenever another school will accept them, it gives them a leg up. A 10 year old who starts at a quality school and already knows how to behave, stand at attention, tie their belt, and carry themselves properly has a great head start.

So, I suppose you might consider making a list of what your family unit as a whole is looking to get out of martial arts, and try to enroll him in the school that best meets everyone's needs.

[Groinstrike]

At the age of 5 i would say that your current program is fine, as he gets older he can decide what he wants from the martial arts.

It certainly sounds like a "mcdojo" is that students are tested on a schedule and the camo belt thing makes me leary for some reason.

Just be realistic with his progress and trust your gut. I would say that the most important thing is to not let him gain false confidence that he can defend himself. This is my biggest problem with pre-teen black belts.

[Liver Punch]

This is my biggest problem with pre-teen black belts.

But we're the same skill level!

I agree with groinstrike 100%. Don't let your kid, yourself, or anyone else drink your art's kool-aid. No matter how good a school is, don't assume that it's the best, and always be open minded to learning from other people and at other schools. I think that the second anyone tells you that they're the best and don't test what they do against others on a regular basis, they're a mcdojo.

[MasterPain]

I think that the second anyone tells you that they're the best and don't test what they do against others on a regular basis, they're a mcdojo.

That's beyond McDojo. That's teaching your kid to be a pompous arrogant jerk who dismisses the value of things they don't understand and can't be bothered to learn about. Teaching kids to be sycophants is a far cry from building character.

[skullsplitter]

I’ve had a lot of these same thoughts off and on over the years. Our school starts kids at 4 if they are able to follow simple instructions and pay attention. I have seen kids fail the basic eval and were asked to return later when they were more ready for a group environment. We also test every 3 months, but not all pass. We also require sparring in order to test pass the 2nd belt. So yes we take kids and kids can earn their black belt if they progress on time at 4 years, but there are also requirements of paying attention, learning to hit another person, etc. Seems like we may be somewhere in the middle of a mcdojo and hardcore school.

My advice to you as a parent is to make sure your kid is learning and progressing. If your kid starts being one of the kids who is lay like a slug then he/she may not be ready yet or may just not be interested. If this happens, take a break from it and see if he/she starts wanting to go back.

We have an 8.5 year old boy at our school who transferred from a local TKD school. He started at 6 and was given his bb at 8. He’s been at our school for a few months now. He can’t tie his own bb. He gets severely beaten by much lower belts in sparring, and does not pay attention in class. But he does have his bb. When I watch him I often wonder where the blame is: on him, on his old TKD school, on his parents? I’m rambling here, but the point is to make sure you watch carefully if he is learning something and getting better.

My boy started at a little before 4 years old and is now almost 11 and is still going strong at his school. It has been a great journey to watch as he grows and develops. To watch him help the little ones tie their new belts at belt grad or to see him help an underbelt with a kata or sparring technique is always an amazing experience for me. Heck, even once when we had a large turnout at adult class when I had just started taking my own classes he ran his old dad through basic kicks and punches. Truly humbling. If your kid sticks with it you as a parent are in for a great ride.

Sorry for the long post. Couldn’t stop typing.

[MaxMarks]

I'm a little nervous because I am so new to to the world of Martial Arts, I think they could very easily dazzle me with words on the way they do things.

I wouldn't sweat it too much. You're ahead of most parents because your involved. Just the fact that you're on this forum asking about it tells me that you'll do fine. Many parents out there aren't involved beyond driving their kids to the dojo and writing a check (which is fine) but you will have an advantage because of your deeper involvement.

Martial arts are a great for adults too. Maybe think about taking it up yourself. You will certainly have great insight into any dojo if you're a student as well and what a great thing to have in common with your child.