Mas Oyama's seiza position

[tallgeese]

Plenty of striking arts, and other arts for that matter, do just fine without it. Any western striking art for instance. Boxers seem to get along just fine without it. Most forms of kickboxing, savate, JKD, ect, all have good striking patterns without reliance on it as a formal part of their workout.

Grappling arts, who spend more time down at floor level than any karate system, don't use it much if at all. Speaking from being around wrestling, shootfighting, and BJJ, I can say that it's just not a part of the tradition and there's no loss of any functionality there.

The position really goes back to feudal Japan where it was a common posture to sit in. It has more to do with that than anything. Of course you'd practice from a position you were likely to be attacked in. We, in modern America, would be much more well served from a functional standpoint from working from chairs or car seats.

[sojobo]

Plenty of striking arts, and other arts for that matter, do just fine without it. Any western striking art for instance. Boxers seem to get along just fine without it. Most forms of kickboxing, savate, JKD, ect, all have good striking patterns without reliance on it as a formal part of their workout.

Grappling arts, who spend more time down at floor level than any karate system, don't use it much if at all. Speaking from being around wrestling, shootfighting, and BJJ, I can say that it's just not a part of the tradition and there's no loss of any functionality there.

The position really goes back to feudal Japan where it was a common posture to sit in. It has more to do with that than anything. Of course you'd practice from a position you were likely to be attacked in. We, in modern America, would be much more well served from a functional standpoint from working from chairs or car seats.

Karate isn’t kickboxing, savat, JKD or BJJ etc., it is Karate.

If you look at it as “function dictates form” - you carry a risk of missing the bigger picture imo.

Just as practicing kata in isolation won’t have a direct consequence on my karate; as part of complete approach - things like sitting in seiza correctly all play a part of making it work.

Sojobo

[tallgeese]

I was going to ask how it applied to karate at large, then I went back and skimmed the thread until I got to your quote here:

"In today’s day it is still important imo, as it is part of the larger picture of correct posture, centre of balance and movement, which is vital to making your karate work"

Ok, I see you hypothesis here. However, how does the center of balance and movement while sitting on your knees translate to that same set of attributes while moving thru a live fighting situation? If you want specific skill in an area, you train for it in that area. Or a cross over situation where the same set of attibutes are applied.

For instance, lots of BJJ guys do yoga. It works as a crossover because of the relaxation thru the positions is the same set of attributes skilled BJJers look for. However, every top end BJJ player will still tell you that the way to get better at jits is to do jits.

So, physiologically, how does sitting on one's knees, a static and stationary postion train you to maintain balance and center while fighting? A better crossover for attribute development would probably some form of dance or standing yoga postures.

There's not enough in common between the two medium to effect a true crossover training advantage.

Now the point I will conceed is that combative efficiency is not the only goal availiable to the martial artist. If your goal is cultural preservation of an artform then by all means, sitting on your knees makes sense. It's part of tradition from a society that no longer exsists that dates to the era of the creation of the systems. I can easily wrap my head around why one would make this part of their day to day routine.

However, let's not make jumps of physiological relevence between seiza and combat.

[sojobo]

Now the point I will conceed is that combative efficiency is not the only goal availiable to the martial artist. If your goal is cultural preservation of an artform then by all means, sitting on your knees makes sense. It's part of tradition from a society that no longer exsists that dates to the era of the creation of the systems. I can easily wrap my head around why one would make this part of their day to day routine.

However, let's not make jumps of physiological relevence between seiza and combat.

Actually, it’s not as farfetched as it seems.

In my earlier post, I tried to explain how “correctly” sitting in seiza can benefit your Karate (in terms of centre of mass and movement etc.) as opposed to sitting in seiza badly. If your weight is not in the right place – it is hard to move from seiza into the next technique. Whilst I understand that different muscle groups come into play, the principles of moving from your centre apply in this respect. And that is all part of correct physiology.

As I said, it won’t do it all by its self, but it as part of the whole - it is a contributing factor and it comes down good processes that you cross into your Kata and Kumite training.

You mention “sitting” on your knees – well actually that’s part of the misunderstanding by many people.

If, when in seiza, you “sit” back on your heels with a poor posture (ie not supporting yourself using your core muscles) your centre of mass is not only in the wrong place – your mindset is most likely in the wrong place also.

Seiza is not sitting in this respect, because that implies “switched off”, that’s simply not the case.

In Japanese ma the term “Kamae” is most commonly understood to mean “posture”. Most people see this as how you are standing / sitting in relation to a martial technique. It’s a stance if you will. In fact it’s a lot more – it’s a mental stance as well, it means you are “poised” both physically and mentally to do the job – I see seiza as being “poised” in this respect.

So it is combative imo – just in a different way.

Sojobo

[tallgeese]

I just keep going back to the idea, that when looked at from a self defense application (which we agree is not the only reason to study) there are better ways to spend time to develop those traits. It's efficiency, that's all.

Time spent learning to sit (or do seiza or however you want to phrase it) is time away from learning actual self defense. It's focus diverted from modern application and training methodology that is more focused in it's crossover application.

Again, I'm more about modern, problem focused methodology when it comes to learning defense. I just don't see this as the best method for teaching the attributes you mention.

[sojobo]

I just keep going back to the idea, that when looked at from a self defense application (which we agree is not the only reason to study) there are better ways to spend time to develop those traits. It's efficiency, that's all.

Time spent learning to sit (or do seiza or however you want to phrase it) is time away from learning actual self defense. It's focus diverted from modern application and training methodology that is more focused in it's crossover application.

IMO, that's what makes Karate a martial art and not merely self defense.

It's an integral part of Budo, and actually, takes no time at all...

But to each their own I guess.

Sojobo

[sensei8]

As a karateka forever, I understand the importance of the seiza position, but as the OP wonders about Oyama's seiza...

Did anybody think that Oyama was just plainly sitting without any concern of anybody reading anything into it?

I'm just saying...

[Kuma]

I vaguely recall being told by someone the reason why Oyama adopted that type of seiza for Kyokushin (i.e. closed fists) was to show they were prepared for a fight at all times. Not sure how true that was, or even if it's true at all, but it's an interesting theory and would be along Oyama's thought process.

[bushido_man96]

I've done shikko in Aikido class. I'm pretty decent at that. I can do without seiza, though.

Do you think Karate would be better without it?

If so, I'd like to understand your reasoning why.

Sojobo

I do, because I think that there are more important positions to develop skills from than being on the knees. I also think that just because it was a popular way to sit in the days of feudal Japan, doesn't necessarily lend itself to being meaningful in our current day and age.

I've real all you've said about it developing posture and what not, but in using some of tallgeese's examples of other styles that don't train it, I don't think it adds anything of value that can't be learned by observing proper posture in other combative stances and positions.

[quinteros1963]

I think it was because he wanted to distinguish his style from others.