Karate Bunkai

[Cayuga Karate]

Sensei8 wrote:

My Dai-Soke loved to turn the tables on us quite often...

"You teach me today. Please, you show me.

I suppose it depends on one's experience in a system. I find that to truly demonstrate something effectively, one has to practice it extensively, especially if it has any kind of grappling in it. And if there is grappling in it, and the attacker at least mildly resists (especially if he is larger), it needs yet more training.

My experience is that most students never have the opportunity in the dojo to develop this kind of capability with movements not formally practiced in the dojo. My experience is that for those with not too many years training, asking them for their ideas is typically not all that productive.

Yet I have heard of this approach in a number of schools, including one with a senior Okinawan teacher in the U.S.

While this may not be the case in the example at hand in Sensei8's dojo, I find this to be a cop-out, an excuse not to show something, often likely because nothing has been passed down to the teacher for this movement, and the movement does not appear to readily translate itself into fighting.

Compared to that Okinawan teacher, mentioned above, who will answer a question of application with a question, "Well what do YOU think??", I would go a different route with a student. I would say:

1. I've never been shown anything at all (This is the case with about 90% of the movements in kata) or,

2. I can show you something that I have been shown by a teacher, or found on video, however, I don't believe this movement would work against a larger attacker in an actual fight. (This is the case for the bunkai I have been taught and seen through extensive youtube searches. This amounts to perhaps 30% of kata movements that I know.)

3. Here's something I have developed that may have some applicability against a larger attacker. (These movements account for about 5% of the kata movements I have been taught, but since I only teach a few kata, accounts for over half of the movements in kata I teach.

only then:

4. If you have something you have developed, I would be most interested in seeing it.

-Cayuga Karate

[Dobbersky]

Have you/Do you study martial arts? As if you are a senior grade you should "see" many of the applications already!!!

Are you writing a book on this or something similar?

Yes, I study Submission Wrestling, I didn't really want to label myself but have updated my profile to reflect this. There are no grades, and I'm not writing a book, I just wanted some people to list some sources, that's all.

OK

Now I know how to place my response to you.

Naihanchi, Tekki Shodan Kata is a "Grappling" or "Wrestling" form. but can be used for striking too (see "Crane sequence" in Casino Royale). there are lots of manipulations of joints, headlocks, takedowns and other sweeps involved in the kata.

Definately look at either Iain Abernethy's DVD on the Form, Also look at the Kissaki DVD of the form too.

For Books any that are available will be fine just "amend" the techniques where a "karate" attack is involved.

I would contact Iain and ask if you could attend a seminar on Naihanchi Kata locally to you as this would be the best avenue for you to follow to get to know what the kata is about

Good luck in your research

[sojobo]

Have you/Do you study martial arts? As if you are a senior grade you should "see" many of the applications already!!!

Are you writing a book on this or something similar?

Yes, I study Submission Wrestling, I didn't really want to label myself but have updated my profile to reflect this. There are no grades, and I'm not writing a book, I just wanted some people to list some sources, that's all.

OK

Now I know how to place my response to you.

Naihanchi, Tekki Shodan Kata is a "Grappling" or "Wrestling" form. but can be used for striking too (see "Crane sequence" in Casino Royale). there are lots of manipulations of joints, headlocks, takedowns and other sweeps involved in the kata.

Definately look at either Iain Abernethy's DVD on the Form, Also look at the Kissaki DVD of the form too.

For Books any that are available will be fine just "amend" the techniques where a "karate" attack is involved.

I would contact Iain and ask if you could attend a seminar on Naihanchi Kata locally to you as this would be the best avenue for you to follow to get to know what the kata is about

Good luck in your research

Hi Dobbersky

You mentioned earlier you studied the Wado version of Naihanchi.

Can I ask, what makes you come to the assumption that it is a grappling kata?

That is not what I understand as its function.

Sojobo

[Zaine]

Can I ask, what makes you come to the assumption that it is a grappling kata?

That is not what I understand as its function.

Sojobo

It would actually make an excellent grappling kata. Right out the gate it would be a break, grab and elbow to the face. Reload to throw them off balance and the throw them over to your left as you punch their face. Side step as you stomp on their face, block, double block, punch, throw them to your left.

It's not exactly how I imagine it works while going through it but it certainly could work beautifully that way.

[Dobbersky]

Can I ask, what makes you come to the assumption that it is a grappling kata?

That is not what I understand as its function.

Sojobo

It would actually make an excellent grappling kata. Right out the gate it would be a break, grab and elbow to the face. Reload to throw them off balance and the throw them over to your left as you punch their face. Side step as you stomp on their face, block, double block, punch, throw them to your left.

It's not exactly how I imagine it works while going through it but it certainly could work beautifully that way.

Taking it one step further than just basic blocks to basic strikes. I find Wado's Jujitsu influence makes the Kata more usable in grappling than Shotokan's Tekki Shodan version!

Grappling is anything where you and your opponent have a grip on each other.

Now using the "Jujitsu/Judo Randori Waza" you can see, Twists, Rear Naked Chokes, Body Scissors, Throws, Sweeps and Strikes all part of grappling, I can see stand-up techniques and groundworking techniques all in the same kata.

Its why I believe Otsuka Sensei decided why only 1 of the 3 Naihanchi kata was required as it would take a lifetime to learn all the techniques in the first Kata. I know Iain Abernethy touches on the grappling part of This kata but then again there are some WadoKa who don't feel Iain's Wado a Pure System.

[Zaine]

Its why I believe Otsuka Sensei decided why only 1 of the 3 Naihanchi kata was required as it would take a lifetime to learn all the techniques in the first Kata.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times my teacher would say "What did I tell you that move was? Oh, it's also this." I have a deep love for these katas because not only are they beautiful, but the knowledge that they trapped inside them are seemingly limitless, I like the pinans for the same reason.

I remember a another student telling me that the naihanchis had not practical application once, and later in the class we sparred. Needless to say that I believe that I did a good job in demonstrating many of the finer point of it's bunkai to him.

[sojobo]

Can I ask, what makes you come to the assumption that it is a grappling kata?

That is not what I understand as its function.

Sojobo

It would actually make an excellent grappling kata. Right out the gate it would be a break, grab and elbow to the face. Reload to throw them off balance and the throw them over to your left as you punch their face. Side step as you stomp on their face, block, double block, punch, throw them to your left.

It's not exactly how I imagine it works while going through it but it certainly could work beautifully that way.

Taking it one step further than just basic blocks to basic strikes. I find Wado's Jujitsu influence makes the Kata more usable in grappling than Shotokan's Tekki Shodan version!

Grappling is anything where you and your opponent have a grip on each other.

Now using the "Jujitsu/Judo Randori Waza" you can see, Twists, Rear Naked Chokes, Body Scissors, Throws, Sweeps and Strikes all part of grappling, I can see stand-up techniques and groundworking techniques all in the same kata.

Its why I believe Otsuka Sensei decided why only 1 of the 3 Naihanchi kata was required as it would take a lifetime to learn all the techniques in the first Kata. I know Iain Abernethy touches on the grappling part of This kata but then again there are some WadoKa who don't feel Iain's Wado a Pure System.

Iain Abernethy's interpretation of kata like Naihanchi is not Wado.

He will tell you the same thing.

It is my understanding that Naihanchi exists for different reasons in terms of Wado pedagogy.

Sojobo

[Zaine]

Iain Abernethy's interpretation of kata like Naihanchi is not Wado.

He will tell you the same thing.

It is my understanding that Naihanchi exists for different reasons in terms of Wado pedagogy.

Sojobo

I find that Naihanchi changes it's meaning from system to system. None of them are wrong, to be certain, but don't tell stubborn masters that. The Naihanchi I learned, for instance, was to be take as you were backed against a wall, slowly fighting your way forward, and where as there was grappling, it was not predominately a grappling kata.

[sojobo]

Stubborn masters may know better than you?

[Zaine]

You'll have to excuse me if I find no respect for the people who claim that there way is the "true way" to do things. There are many ways to do things, it's one of the things that I love about martial arts. Luckily for us, for every stubborn master there is an open-minded one.