Punching Methods - Why?

[Dobbersky]

Punching Methods - Why?

All

I have used the Phrase "Karate Punching" but this goes along with any style that give a "Punch from the Hip"

I would love to know why doe we practice "Karate Punching" when we go into Kumite (Sparring or Fighting) (especially when practicing Knock Down Karate and K-1 etc), do we not punch like this. I find it a waste of time learning to "punch" like this then when you have to punch you all instinctively punch like a Boxer!

Karate Punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjwxff6c7sM

Boxer Punching

I can only see lack of protection for the Head, punching like this

What are your opinions. Which do you teach/practice and why?

_________________________

[Wastelander]

I can't see the videos because I'm at work, but I assume you're referring to the "fist chambered at the hip" position when punching? Personally, I think there is an awful lot of emphasis being put on that without it ever being explained to people, so they do it and think that they are just supposed to punch that way. I know that the chambered hand is only there because it is pulling your opponent toward you while you strike outward, but many people do not teach that or make it widely known, so there becomes some misconception as to what it is for.

[pathgen]

It stead of comparing the two punches at first. Understand how each one evolved. I write this to my understanding.

The karate punch was developed for being used outside of the ring. The philosophy was to hit hard once and take your opponent down before he gets to you. So if you notice the karate punch is much more straight in execution. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line hence why the punch can be faster when you learn to relax the hips. Plus, it telegraphs a lot less and you can hit your opponent by surprise since there is no wind up. Also, properly executed using the hips and the back leg in a compression like motion you can really do the same if not more damage than a boxer's punch. The learning curve is a bit higher and relaxing the shoulders is important to allow for that burst of speed. Pulling the opposite arm back increases the speed and power of the punch further.

The boxer's style of punching was designed for the ring. Although effective, your meant to hit your opponent quickly more times with moderate amounts of force. It is more designed for taking opponents down in the ring, because you hit hard and quickly with that "natural way" of delivering power. However, a boxer's stance is more to the front which relinquishes the power from the back leg being included. This style of fighting builds very good endurance. Boxing was a sport back in the ancient Greek days at the olympics. As a sport the emphasis of taking your opponent down in a short amount of time would be bad for business and not nearly as fun. This is one of the reasons why they are different.

For example take a samurai vs. a karateka, the karate person would try to take down his opponent in the most direct instant knockout way as possible to avoid getting cut with the samurai's sword. Any extra time is time that can be used to cut. Boxer's don't have predator's like that in the ring and can afford to do combo's and stuff like that before the knockout.

Unfortunately, the karate punch can be taught in an altered way as well. Overtime, the punch is changed to suit competitions. The days of samurai and thugs are pretty much over. At least for me I don't go around punching people in the face every day, so it makes sense that people are learning to punch more for sparring than that need to kill.

[ninjanurse]

Movement patterns build muscle memory, timing, distance, speed, flexion, extension, rotation, balance, focus, strength, etc., regardless of the perceived application. Everything has it's purpose.

[tallgeese]

Wastelander is largely correct in his statement about the origins of the chambered hand to punch in karate. To expand, the pulling to the hip is also designed to serve as a physical textbook for putting an opponents arm into a position for a straight arm bar take down (reference to a aiki style move here, not bjj). The often mis-quoted "mid level" block outside to inside in many traditional kata is the other half of this as a destruction to the elbow.

It has far more to do with this than a single, killing blow application or ring vs. street application. If anything, protecting the head and keeping your hands and elbows in a more defensive position is MORE important in the street than in the ring. Straight lines are made shorter if the weapons are actually up on plane where they will be striking. Not to mention, boxers also understand physics and jabs and crosses should also travel in a straight line from the cover position to target and back.

It's a misunderstanding of the kata. This is part of my anti-kata stance. We can now openly train punching and openly train arm bars, and openly train joint destructions. Why don't we just do that and hence more efficiently train for each individual weapon. Using a chambered position is a relic of an older training understanding and cultural paradigm. So if one is looking to most efficiently prepare for multi-range combat in the hand to hand arena, why not train with a modern methodology that more effectively does that?

If one still wants to retain kata, I'd suggest moving all hip chambers to the high guard position at a minimum. To go a step further, I'd shorten all stances to combat application. The exceptions being those kata that date back to pre-1940. There are good stuff in there; however, I'd also see that my instructor had bunkai that was accurate to the form. These are actually hard to find. Any post-1940 kata is largely designed to look like the older forms with little to no retention of actual meaning.

[pathgen]

I forgot to add the differences the posture creates. Boxer's are at a stance that is leaning more forward than the karate counterpart. This is partly because traditionally boxers don't have to worry about being grabbed and pulled forward in the ring because it is against the rules of boxing. Karate punches are usually delivered with the spine straight and almost leaning backwards with the shoulder staying inline with the hips. It is all about where your center of gravity is, if it is behind you it is much harder to grab and pull you forward. Boxer's use their gaurd position to block their head, while karate uses the natural distance the posture creates to keep your opponent's punch from hitting your face. Or at least that is the idea, it doesn't always happen that way =D. The more i write about this the more I realize that there is a lot more to the comparison of the two punches than I could write in one sitting. For instance, you could also take into consideration the different angles your opponent can attack while you are in the ready position and throughout the execution of the punch.

[tallgeese]

The problem is that all these karate variables are artificial. They've been created as an explanation for misunderstood kata positions. Any weight distribution will have pluses and minuses. In fact, I'd argue that the ones mentioned are not as great as one would think.

For instance, distance is not created solely by stance (ie the karate posture) but also via footwork (in the case of the boxer). I think there's a reasonable argument that would favor the footwork since movement is far superior to a rooted immobile stance in most instances.

Again, distance isn't a function of the stance, it's reverse engineering from kata interpreted improperly.

The weight distribution forward and back might (and I emphasis MIGHT) let a boxer get pulled forward easier; however, the aggressive forward posture of a boxer in more in the mindset of prevailing in combat. They're more likely to press the fight where a rear weight distribution karate stance has difficulty dealing with the forward rush of a take down attempt or rushing attack. A weakness we've seen demonstrated again and again in the early UFC's and Gracie in Action fights ( I note these for the purposes of demonstrating the concept, not to create a grappling v. striker argument. It's for showing a concept alone).

When we start to discuss angles, there are few better examples of cutting angles that boxers. I don't think there's an argument to be made that our reverse engineered chambered punch can provide superior angular movement over a boxing punch. However, I'm open to hearing one.

I do think that boxers have karate-ka on this. Their punching is just better in most cases. It's target to all vulnerable targets on the upper body (the most effective use of the hands in striking). Their movement is superior to cut angles and produce openings due to non-rigid stances.

To root this to Dobbersky's initial post, this is largely due not to the art itself, but to the mis-represented stance and chamber work of kata put together after most of the initial meaning had been lost. It's more dynamic in methodology than a lot of karate training (again, often the fault of kata) and more dynamic training lends itself better to actual conflict.

[bushido_man96]

It stead of comparing the two punches at first. Understand how each one evolved. I write this to my understanding.

The karate punch was developed for being used outside of the ring. The philosophy was to hit hard once and take your opponent down before he gets to you.

I agree with you here. However, when the Boxing punch began, there was no padding; bare knuckles were used. So, I think they tried to do as much damage with a single strike, as well. The arms were kept up for protection from the other puncher, as well.

So if you notice the karate punch is much more straight in execution. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line hence why the punch can be faster when you learn to relax the hips. Plus, it telegraphs a lot less and you can hit your opponent by surprise since there is no wind up. Also, properly executed using the hips and the back leg in a compression like motion you can really do the same if not more damage than a boxer's punch.

The Boxer has straight-line punches, too. The jab and the straight punch, and the cross are straight-line punches. If done properly, none of these punches have a windup, either. As for power, Boxer's will still generate power in the hips and drive the punch from the floor; they just don't straighten the back leg, keeping a more maneuverable stance. There is still a lot of power in a rear cross.

Boxing was a sport back in the ancient Greek days at the olympics. As a sport the emphasis of taking your opponent down in a short amount of time would be bad for business and not nearly as fun. This is one of the reasons why they are different.

Yes, it was an ancient game in the Olympics, however, even when hand padding was worn, the leather was oftentimes studded. I don't think bout duration was any key aspect of the games at those times. However, the crowd did enjoy the blood and violence of it all, and it wasn't uncommon for one to die from trauma in those games.

[bushido_man96]

I can't see the videos because I'm at work, but I assume you're referring to the "fist chambered at the hip" position when punching? Personally, I think there is an awful lot of emphasis being put on that without it ever being explained to people, so they do it and think that they are just supposed to punch that way. I know that the chambered hand is only there because it is pulling your opponent toward you while you strike outward, but many people do not teach that or make it widely known, so there becomes some misconception as to what it is for.

Coming up through TKD, I was taught to punch this way in order to develop power through the body mechanics with the hip movement, and being taught the "equal and opposite reaction" to go along with the punching hand.

I'm not saying its right, but that's how I was told when coming up.

[Dobbersky]

All

Excellent and dare I say awesome posts by everyone with regards to this topic!!!

May I add that "karate punching" is dare i say not punching at all but a practice of Kyoushi

Take the basic Grab in Judo,

Left Hand on the opponent's Right Shoulder/Lapel, Right Hand grasping the underneath of the opponent's Left Elbow - very similar to the position of the basic Karate front stance!!!

Now with the Punch, the Hikite, you get the push/pull action, whilst twisting the opponent's shoulder to one side creating him/her to be off-balance. This in succession can become a basic throw!!!

This is how I teach the Karate Punching aswell as the Grab and punch as discussed above

again thank you all