Tapping

[DWx]

This might be a moot point... but

When you've got someone in a lock or choke or whatever and they tap, do you guys automatically ease off or is it a conscious decision each time? I know when I'm sparring in TKD and someone shouts "guman" (stop) or "hechyo" (separate) its almost like a reflex to stop attacking and relax a bit. Do you think when in an actual fight you could get duped into letting go if someone tapped?

[Groinstrike]

Good Question, it is very important to condition ourselves to not get adrenaline drunk and choke our training partners unconsious. As our moms have told us "don't break your toys".

In a combative situation however, we must use the force necessary to stop the assault, this may mean choking to unconsiousness or even death, or breaking a limb.

Along the same lines i once heard a story of a martial artist who took a knife away from an assailant only to hand the knife right back because he had been conditioned to due so in training.

We have a rule in our dojo, never hand the weapon back after a disarm, your partner must take it away from you.

[ps1]

It is a good point. However, after 8 years of BJJ, I find myself waiting for the tap...meaning I'm completely conscious throughout the movements and everything I do is purposeful. I would be willing to bet that, somewhere between beginner and advanced, it does become more of a reflex for a time.

There have been more than one fight in the UFC where a fighter let up on a hold because he thought the opponent tapped. However, you usually don't see the best grapplers doing this, they wait for the ref to stop the fight.

[Groinstrike]

It is a good point. However, after 8 years of BJJ, I find myself waiting for the tap...meaning I'm completely conscious throughout the movements and everything I do is purposeful. I would be willing to bet that, somewhere between beginner and advanced, it does become more of a reflex for a time.

There have been more than one fight in the UFC where a fighter let up on a hold because he thought the opponent tapped. However, you usually don't see the best grapplers doing this, they wait for the ref to stop the fight.

Charuto Vs. Hughes anyone????

[ShoriKid]

It's not a reflex to release the hold at the tap. I'm mindful of my training partner when we're rolling, don't want to break my them. Too hard to replace and I can't order a good one off the internet.

I have a feeling with the adrenal dump of a real encounter easing into locks and chokes won't be so easy. I know you will react based off of your training, and I know what you're getting at DWx. However, think about how amped most are during a competition. Joint damage and failure to respond to a tap or ref the first time through aren't all that uncommon. Plenty of that is the result of being so keyed up on adrenaline that your response changes. I've seen way more serious injuries that were the result competition than in the training hall.

[tallgeese]

It's not a reflexive action at this point; however, I expect that it was at one time. When we roll, we're expected to have a level of control that you're aware of each movement. This makes it easier to internalize the motions. It also means that a lot of times you're moving slower to feel the control.

Anymore, I'm usually moving at a rate that will allow me to feel the submission coming. Often, especially against less experienced people who might hold out to long, I'll let off before the tap or as the hand is moving to tap because I feel the tightness. It's not the tap that indicates the release, but it's simply a confirmation of what you should already know.

As for how this translates, I can't say that I've ever had someone tap out in a conflict on the job. I've had the grimace, make noise, or other such indicator that I've achieved my goal. If you've made the mindset decision ahead of time and trouble shot you're responses, you'll be in a better position to not let go just because of what you do in training. If you've trained to feel and understand control, you'll also be in a better position to think thru your reaction to this. It's a situation where preparation prior to the incident is crucial as is breaking down what you're going to do in specific situations where you might use your skills.

[DWx]

I was just wondering whether it'd be an issue for you guys. Probably right about it being the mid-level student and not the beginner or advanced person. And I get what you're saying about knowing when you've got the control and you're just waiting for them to realize it rather than using the tap to signify it

I guess you've just got to make sure you've not programmed yourself to think tap=let go, if you do, it'll probably happen under duress.

We have a rule in our dojo, never hand the weapon back after a disarm, your partner must take it away from you.

Seems like a smart idea to me.

[sensei8]

Great topic...SOLID!!

Great responses and if I've anything to add it would be this.

Shindokan teaches Tuite and the like, and in that, I am going to be honest here...attack me and I might release. For me, if you're still fighting, even a little, I might not release for the fear that you'll turn the tables around on me and then I'm in a world of misery.

I'd say that it's been drilled in me enough over the countless many years while learning/training Tuite/Grappling/etc to let go when ones had enough. I'd not deliberately keep the hold tight but it won't be loose enough for my attacker to wiggle out.

I was asked once if I'd break an arm/finger/wrist/elbow/other bones, and my answer is this...YES I would without any thought to it, but my life better be on the line and the like. Resist, I'll just tighten more to keep my attackers attention. To break a bone...the answer for me must be..."always".

Why teach if we're not willing to do what it is that we're so well versed in? It would appear to me that I'd be nothing more than a hypocritical instructor/MAist.

[brickshooter]

I don't know about others, but I have to really focus and feel for the tap. Otherwise, I'll accidentally go too far. So if I were to slip up because of fatigue, I'm sure that I'll accidentally break rather than let go.

[tallgeese]

Do you mean you have trouble feeling your partner's tap? If so, I'd suggest slowing down to increase your feel.