Bruce Lee's Science and Art of Expression Confusion

[Karateka63]

ok guys lately I'm kind of thrown off of the concept of real fighting because as Bruce Lee says, if one becomes too methodological your fighting style becomes robotic but if use the Art of Expression you say "here I am as a man".

Science = too robotic

Art= too unrealistic

so my confusion is

a lot of martial artists say when you are in a fight it is a series of random brutal chaotic events that play out in a short amount of time so if a fight between 2 people is chaotic, how can an individual effectively apply useful techniques to a fight if the fight itself is chaotic??? (tell me if I'm not making sense)

lately I've been trying to figure out why I've become so tense when it comes to sparring and fighting in general, when I train my body I follow step by step to perfect technique and now when I throw these techniques they feel natural in sparring but when I'm in a fight, my fight or flight kicks in and I just feel like going donkey kong on someone.

for example, when I practice kicks, I know the movements are Up, Out, Back, Down, I practice kicks in steps and putting those steps all together but when I'm in a actual fight and not a sparring match my body just wants to forget everything I ever trained for and just tackle someone to the floor but I know if I do that their just going to stick their arm out and punch me....but my body wants ta do it anyway how the heck can I stop this lol.

[tallgeese]

You train, that's how you sharpen your responses to what you want them to be. Here's the thing, by applying science to a fight, you're looking for the edge that brings some sort of order to the chaotic events of a fight.

That's not bad, the problem occurs when we train unrealistically. If you never try to induce the conditions you'll be expected to use these skills under then how can you drill them for actual use.

I'm not suggesting that the only valuable training is all-out, go for blood, smash your partner injury fests, but you have to strive to build some aspects of a fight into your training. This includes doing when you're exhausted, in negative positions, and with some measure of non-choreographed, random attacks.

The next thing to consider is developing and understanding the principles of your art. Technique might fail for any number of reasons, principle shouldn't. This keeps you from getting locked into a series of movements that aren't working.

Lastly, look at your response patterns and make sure they fit your physiology, psychology, and needs. If your goal is self defense, and your taking tools that don't suit you into combat, this is a bad thing. Consider experimenting with other arts that push different tactics. See if they fit you better. Just a thought.

To close, I'd like to go back one more time to the first sentence. Train. Whatever paradigm you pick, it will never get to the level of readiness if you don't train it. Build slowly towards your goal and put realistic training into your cycle in stages. But keep training.

[bushido_man96]

Like usual, tallgeese is spot on here. What I was going to mention was introducing some adrenale-stress into your training. Instead of the nice, clean, partner training setups seen in most schools, have your partner start by shoving you, and getting in your face and calling you nasty things. Once you get pushed, that adrenaline makes EVERYTHING feel different. The key, like tallgeese makes mention of, is being able to apply your tactics when you feel this way.

And on a side note, don't get too would up in everything Bruce Lee said. He did some great things, and said some very memorable things, but don't hold to it all just because Bruce said it. Read it, study it, then grow and learn, and you will see how thing relate to you as you come along.

[sensei8]

I concur with both Alex and Brian on this one.

I've always believed that while I study Shindokan as my core style of the MA, I'm actually a master of Bob-Do because I'm entwined with every style of the MA that I've ever trained in...in that, Shindokan is nothing unless I'm involved. TKD is nothing unless I'm involved. The art is dependent on ME!!

"Take what is useful; discard the rest!"~Bruce Lee. That little statement is nothing without me involved in it to make it work through trial and error.

"Judo's great", but only if someone's doing it, and doing it well and let's not forget, someone's got to teach it and to do that, students are needed to want to do learn it, otherwise, it's nothing more than a word.

[MasterPain]

I'm right with these guys. It takes a long time to ingrain an art to the point that you can use it under pressure. Also, you need experience of training under pressure.

I must admit that I am a huge fan of Bruce Lee, but we must avoid hero worship and fanboyism. In Enter the Dragon, there was a scene where he told a student not to look at the finger or we'd miss the glory of the heavens that it pointed to. He also smacked the kid upside the head. I interpret this, in my infinite wisdom (cough) to mean that a teacher can be a guide, but in the long run we must make our own way. I think it was Einstein who said that his knowledge was the tip of the pyramid of the knowledge of others which he stood on. I think that means that the theory of Relativity would not exist had his mother not potty trained him, or something.

I think that if you want an idea of what bruce would be doing today, if he had lived, you should check out Burton Richardson. He's a JKD instructor, Escrimador, BJJ black belt, and Chris Leben's coach. Another good guy top look to is Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny. His take what works and train it live approach makes for a great martial artist.

[Dobbersky]

I would love to add to this but everyone has added such excellent explainations.

The only thing I can add is stop looking at the twig when that is just part of the tree it come from

Bruce Lee covered a small spetrum of Martial Arts Training. What you must look at is forget about having to think about technique and just do the technique. This is not to do technique without contructive training but to do the technique until it becomes as natuaral as breathing - If you do not have to think about the technique during an attack its 1 less thing to think about

[Karateka63]

Thank you guys for all your explanation however,

I'm getting so sick and tired of feeling like all my training is inapplicable to real fighting scenarios and given the fact that the types of dojo's you guys are suggesting are scarce, I just feel like going outside and getting my butt kicked so many times to the point I get it right

I have done kata's for over 3 years, practicing the science behind the movement just to get the technique down flat all in acts to protect my friends and family.........I am a fan of bruce lee and so many other martial artists, I study both the movements and the philosophy behind martial arts because it enlightens me to be a better man for myself and my family.

I want to protect my friends and family, I am sick of slow progress if I need to get my butt kicked a couple times so be it, if it helps me protect the ones I love......I'll do anything for them.

help me you guys.......martial arts has always been more then a hobby to me I love it.....but to have all my training lean towards philosophy and not actual combat...........I think im bound to make a stupid decision since I can't find a dojo in my area where martial artists will hard contact spar, I'm am sick of relying on my adrenaline! my adrenaline has won me fights! but I hate it when I'm not in control of my own body! I always feel pathetic after the fight weather I win or lose!

[Karateka63]

it's funny how in martial arts they teach you to avoid fighting at all costs, that is the philosophy behind it yet in order to be a brilliant martial artist you have to train under those conditions, I feel like all my training I've ever done ever was all spiritual nothing I can actually take into combat with.........I hate that this country doesn't have free health care -_- lol

[MasterPain]

Why have you been in enough fights to recognize that your technique falling apart is a pattern?

[Karateka63]

I realize my techniques broken apart is actually a pattern that combines into combos masterpain but look,

all the fights I've ever been in were in my childhood with my dead-beat father and logically won all of those fights because I was 7 but I put up a hell of a fight just so he wouldn't hit my mom or older bro that was back when I barley knew anything about martial arts,

and I still know very little however it somehow seems the only way to effectively improve myself as practitioner of martial arts is to risk getting a couple bones broken all while attempting to put all my techniques to use, see what works for me and what does not.

for those that don't work out I'll just train them till they do work out.