Protocol for a new student with rank in another marital art

[kansascityshuffle]

I'm a Kyokushin karate sensei, for all of you that don't know, Kyokushin is a full contact style of karate that focuses quite a bit on knockdown kumite. Our gradings for dan ranks who I'm under are 30 person kumite for shodan, 40 for nidan, 50 for sandan.

With all of that being said I teach Kyokushin at a university and all of my students are university students. Some of them have backgrounds in other martial arts like shotokan, freestyle karate, MMA, Muay Thai, TKD, etc. Two of those styles got upset I wouldn't let them train with their black belt and brown belt.

Basically, my own standard is I'd rather have a student that lacks in kata but is competent in kumite...not the other way around. With that being said, that doesn't mean somebody from a non-knockdown style wouldn't be able to hold their own in knockdown kumite but if they have never done it before I can guarantee they won't be at "black belt level." It's the same if I went into a TKD dojang, I wouldn't be at a "TKD black belt level of sparring."

I only allow someone with a knockdown background to wear their ranks in my dojo..knockdown being Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, Yoshukai, Shidokan, Seidokaikan, etc. This is because those styles do knockdown kumite, that doesn't mean that person will be grading for their next rank under me or my org, neither. That person would have to learn my ways and still convert but i'd let them start out as their current rank.

So, I explained to an adult shotokan brown belt why he couldn't wear his brown belt, for one he only knew the taikyoku kata, which even in shotokan is odd considering shotokan does much more then that. I told him the kihon he does is good but there is some kihon in Kyokushin that isn't in shotokan...like shuto mawashi uke. He also has never used gedan mawashi geri, hiza geri, etc. in kumite.

With all of this being said I will not hold somebody back from grading if they're ready I will also never promote somebody just because they show up to class..they need to put in the effort and train outside of my instruction, too. I have a TKD student right now that's a red belt in TKD, he'll probably double graded to yellow belt (white, blue, yellow) in 3-4 months, versus the 7-10 months it would probably take if he was a complete beginner.

In the past when I've gone to other dojo I have never assumed I could wear my black belt. I show up wearing a white belt. I have been fortunate that the instructors have asked me in private about my background and insisted I wear my black belt but I've never assumed I could.

What are some of you instructor's thoughts on this and how you deal with it?

I must add I've never came across this problem as often as I have now, the difference is in the past I have taught at private commercial dojo and now I'm teaching at a university.

[ShoriKid]

Etiquette varies from from school to school on people wearing rank they have from a different style. In the original dojo I started out in you were a white belt, period. You started on the same course of basics as every other beginner. The progress through the ranks might be accelerated due to prior training and skill, but that was it.

The line of instructors I train under right now will let you wear your rank to class. You have to go back and cover all of the information up to the level you're wearing, say a green belt, before you can even think of working toward a higher ranking. And when you're lining up with someone who's worked all the way up through the ranks in the system, they take precedence when lining up. Meaning, sure you're wearing a green belt from your old school, but the green belt with less time in grade will still be to the right of you and is likely to promote before you "catch up".

Even teaching at a college, it's still you doing the instructing. To me, that makes it your call. As long as you have a clear way you handle people coming in with rank, and apply it consistently, people should be okay with it. Those are the biggest things. If one Shotokan practitioner is told not to wear his brown belt, but the black belt that starts next month is, you can have some justly hurt feelings. Other wise though, your show your call.

Best thing I've learned if you're visiting another school is to carry a white belt and a plain gi with no patches and be ready to wear them.

[tallgeese]

There is defiantly a wide variety of leeway on the subject that I've seen applied here and there. I'm out of a culture that pretty much lets you wear your rank from another art on our floor no questions asked.

We're not a knockdown style, but we do a lot of heavy contact sparring and spontaneous attack and defend drills that some karate guys are not comfortable with. That's okay. It is after all, very easy to tell the black belt out of another system vs. your own. And should be to all the student ranks as well.

If someone comes in and stays long term, they keep wearing whatever kyu rank they had until they overtake it with our rank.

Now, I'm the first to admit;however, that the area I come out of has less of a population base that practices martial arts of any kind than any larger community. I'm sure this affects the outlook on the matter.

The only think I would expect white belts to be donned for (don't teach much these days) are radically different arts. For instance, there is no reason for a karate guy to expect to wear his belt onto a BJJ floor. Quite frankly, given the uniqueness of your rule set for sparring, I think you knockdown guys would fall under the same kind of thing, in my mind. What you do is different enough to require new belt rank.

I would say that the reverse is also accurate in both of the above examples.

As to the college environment, all the clubs I was part of (undergrad and grad) just went no-gi. Thus ending the problem altogether. Due largely to the questions you pose. The tradition wasn't worth explaining over and over again. Further, it let a lot of guys with alternate backgrounds come in and get involved and let us all work new things. But that's just what worked for us.

I agree with ShoriKid, if it's applied across the board, no matter which way you go, you won't have a problem. Keep us posted on how teaching in that setting is going for you.

[kansascityshuffle]

I teach at a university, but it's done as a normal Kyokushin class, it's not just a club to show up wearing no uniform. Before I was brought in to teach it was a social club where people would get together and just swap techniques, etc. However, they wanted a structured class where they could actually learn, progress, have the opportunity to advance in rank, compete in tournaments, etc.

My associates at other universities in the same state do the same thing...it's ran as a dojo but is held at a university. What this does for us is allow us to keep the tuition costs and overhead very low.

The reason why I allow knockdown karate stylists to keep their rank is because there are a lot of politics in knockdown karate...primarily within Kyokushin and the different orgs. I do my best to avoid politics and in doing so will allow somebody from a different org to wear their rank.

I've only had one student with rank from another Kyokushin org/dojo come to my class, I allowed him to keep his rank. He didn't have to learn anything new, convert, etc., what he did was the same as what I do and teach. With that being said, I was a shito and goju ryu black belt before I took up Muay Thai and Kyokushin, I was not able to spar at knockdown kumite "black belt level" until I actually learned knockdown kumite.

I've been running this dojo for about a year now and have lost 3 students that wanted to keep their rank. This isn't really something I'm willing to budge on because I expect a certain standard.

I guess what I'm asking is, any advice on possibly how to be nicer in explaining this to somebody? Or am I basically always going to have the few individuals that expect to keep their rank even though what they do is radically different?

[tallgeese]

I think you're probably always going to have that group that will have that expectation. I've always operated under the assumption that you probably don't wan them anyway. They aren't going to be into your art, and even if they are with a mindset like that it's going to be hard to work with them long term.

Best to encourage them to find a club focusing on what they are already doing, or (especially in the case of the brown belt and up) start their own. That way you plant another club. That brown belt that might not fit in real well at your group, might have skills that are worth training with him for. This way you get the best of both worlds, he's not disrupting your efforts and you have access to him for outside training if it interests either of you on a less formal basis.

[Montana]

Unless it's the same system, or VERY similar one, all students start out as white belt, 10 kyu in my dojo. I would expect the same of me if I joined a different dojo myself.

[Lupin1]

Heck, my instructor makes US start out as white belts if we leave the school for awhile and then come back. I've left twice-- once for only a few years from the time I was 11 to 13 and I wore a white belt for about six months while I relearned the things I'd forgotten and then I left again from the time I was 14 to 22. That time it only took me about three months get back up to the level I was at (I guess having learned it twice before imprinted it into my muscle memory a little stronger-- the increased coordination and ability to process and dissect the movements that comes with being an adult helped, too).

I went to a TKD school for a few weeks and they let me wear my Isshinryu rank, but I didn't really like doing it. I think if I try a new school again, I'll choose to wear a white belt even if they don't make me. It's a whole new set of skills to learn and there's something about working your way up the ranks that makes the new system feel like your own as opposed to how I felt wearing a green belt at my very first TKD class-- like I was different and didn't fit in and represented my old school more than became a part of this new school.

[Kuma]

I think that was perfectly reasonable, KCS. I wouldn't expect to wear my belt to a TKD class and expect the same treatment, nor should I since it's a different system.

Since we are more of a training group than an actual class, my instructor lets whoever wants to train with us wear their own gi and belt. However, if they want to grade with us, they start as a white belt and are treated as such.

[bassaiguy]

I always bring a white belt and put it on with no questions asked whenever I train at another dojo. If the instructor wants me to wear my original rank he can tell me - if not, the problem has solved itself. I do this even when I'm visiting clubs in my style outside of my organization. If someone isn't willing to put on a white belt and train hard it probably says something more about their attitude as a student than their rank does.

[sensei8]

Unless it's the same system, or VERY similar one, all students start out as white belt, 10 kyu in my dojo. I would expect the same of me if I joined a different dojo myself.

Double ditto!! No Exceptions!!