head movement in Karate

[brickshooter]

Which one? Because both are used quite a bit in boxing. Distance is important both offensively and defensively and dictates what you're going to pull out of the tool box to use.

Stance work is also important, but not in the sense that most karate people will think of it. Stance in boxing goes hand in hand with distance and keeps one mobile. Additionally, it's critical in creating angles, which again, is important both offensively and defensively.

The head motion, which started this tread, is a major component in boxing so I think that goes without saying.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that boxing is the ultimate art, just that they have a great grasp on the science of throwing hands, better than most karate users. I'm also willing to give on the fact that the large gloves do alter defensive paradigms, just bear in mind due to the lighter gloves used in competition, and the use of boxing guards we've seen in the UFC with minimal hand padding (let's face it, to prevent the fracture of hands not head trauma) it's still valuable.

Like bushido man, I'm not familiar with the term "todome". I ran it thru an online translation service and it came back with "finishing blow". That leaves some room for interpretation given the conversation that led to it. Perhaps you could help us out with the connotations of the term before we comment.

IMO, gloves protect the hand and prevent serious head trauma. Boxing punches are generally delivered in a natural arc. Gloves & wraps protect the hand from boxers break.

However, gloves also act as a pad, protecting the head from catastrophic trauma when the puncher's hand doesn't break upon impact. I've personally witnessed a fist fight after a local baseball game where a 135lbs. guy whom I've always thought to be an average Karate guy punched his 180lb. attacker in the face and broke the guy's cheekbone with a single punch. The 135lb guy had conditioned knuckles.

[todome]

I never said anything about downshifting. Shizentai means readiness such that one is prepared to wait OR react. Sometimes that reaction is another strike. The mind is ready and so is the body. Kamae.

[brickshooter]

Hi everyone, i'm new here so this is my first post.

I've been training shotokan karate for about 2 and a half years now. My Sensei focuses primarily on building our technique with constant repetition of punch/kick combinations, all kata based. We spar everyday but without punches to the face, only the head under circumstances, and during drills.

I love Karate, i've studied it since I was a kid, but even after years of practice I can't seem to get the rhythm down when sparring other styles. I train bjj as well and I go to this mma club at my college where people tend to spar really intensely.

The other day I was at that club and decided to try sparring with this boxer I met. I've never done boxing before, and I have to admit I felt lost in there. The gloves were gigantic compared to what we use at my dojo so that threw me off a bit. He started doing the typical bob and weave tactic moving his head left and right and throwing wild hooks over the top which were pretty easy to predict and move away from, but then I landed a quick shot to his nose not even too hard and he got a bit crazy head hunting the rest of the time. I kept trying to parry and counterstrike like I normally do but with those big gloves on it just wasn't working. I got my face beat up.

Now, had we allowed kicks it might have been a different story because the majority of my combinations tend to start or end with kicks which i've gotten quite good at landing.

Basically i'm wondering though, for the next time I end up in this situation.. should I just stick to my footwork and timing to avoid getting decked in the face? Or would it be better to bob and weave like a boxer in that instance? Keep in mind i'm talking about sparring with punches only. We practice some head movement at my dojo, but nothing like what i've seen boxers do. I'll probably never do that again but it was kind of fun so you never know.

How were you taught at your dojo? Do other karate styles have this type of head movement?

Most other styles avoid the bob. The reason is that you put your head half way to your opponent's knee and feet. Your reaction time is now cut in half. So you better have world class timing and vision to avoid those attacks since they have only to travel 1/2 way to reach your head.

MT folks even take it to an extreme. They actually stand on their back leg sort of like a modified cat stance. And they do it to avoid the other guy's knee.

If you're under boxing rules, then you need to take your left and and right hand, put them together and cover your chin. Then lower your elbows to protect your ribs. Then bob and weave. Don't be a hot dog and think that you can't be hit with fancy bob and weave. Bob and weave is only one layer of defense. You need multiple layers of defense in case one fails.

There are several youtube videos of Mike Tyson training. That's how you should bob and weave.

[Liver Punch]

My point is that squared of with an old master gloves off no rules winner takes all I honestly don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving is going to do you a hell of a lot of good. He'll be out to punch you once and go home and probably will. Poking him a few times would just help him get his bearings.

I don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving will help you in most situations. Just like throwing perpetual front kicks won't help you either. I'd recommend one bob or weave used in conjunction with an entering strike or takedown attempt. While you're down there you might latch your hand or teeth around his reproductive organs - it's pretty useful.

[todome]

I don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving will help you in most situations. Just like throwing perpetual front kicks won't help you either. I'd recommend one bob or weave used in conjunction with an entering strike or takedown attempt. While you're down there you might latch your hand or teeth around his reproductive organs - it's pretty useful.

Used as a feint I'm sure its worth it but for the most part all that movement gives the old dogs more transition to catch you in. IMO.

[bushido_man96]

You will have to fill me in on what "todome" is. I'm not well-versed in other languages.

Thanks for asking.

The term has a couple of meanings. Generally it means "finishing blow". It can also mean something more along the lines of "disabling an attacker" but "finishing blow" is the more common intent.

I train traditional Shotokan. Nishiyama school. The goal is develop the ability to go from zero to kill at the moment of kyo and do it every time. Maybe it isn't the best thing for the streets. Doesn't matter to me. Its the art that keeps me coming back. That and the fact its at the top of my list for lifetime activities.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the idea of a finishing blow is a valid one, but, like tallgeese, I'm also a proponent of the idea of combination striking. I think each strike should be performed as a finishing blow, but never singularly. I want to finish the guy with this blow, and this blow, and this blow...and so on, as tallgeese mentioned, until the threat is neutralized.

I think of it the same way I think about a lethal force situation involving a handgun. I'm not going to shoot a lethal threat once, and then check to see if he/she falls down. I'm going to keep shooting until the threat is down.

[bushido_man96]

My point is that squared of with an old master gloves off no rules winner takes all I honestly don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving is going to do you a hell of a lot of good. He'll be out to punch you once and go home and probably will. Poking him a few times would just help him get his bearings.

I don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving will help you in most situations. Just like throwing perpetual front kicks won't help you either. I'd recommend one bob or weave used in conjunction with an entering strike or takedown attempt. While you're down there you might latch your hand or teeth around his reproductive organs - it's pretty useful.

Like a different type of Tai-Sabaki. Good idea.

I think bobbing and weaving likely evolved more as Boxing continued to evolve, and therefore, doing extensively is more for ring strategy, where as in self-defense, it can be of great use, on a smaller scale. But, I think you see some similar things happen in Karate when you look at how Karate competitions are fought. You see strategies used there that you wouldn't see to the same extent in self-defense.

[todome]

You will have to fill me in on what "todome" is. I'm not well-versed in other languages.

Thanks for asking.

The term has a couple of meanings. Generally it means "finishing blow". It can also mean something more along the lines of "disabling an attacker" but "finishing blow" is the more common intent.

I train traditional Shotokan. Nishiyama school. The goal is develop the ability to go from zero to kill at the moment of kyo and do it every time. Maybe it isn't the best thing for the streets. Doesn't matter to me. Its the art that keeps me coming back. That and the fact its at the top of my list for lifetime activities.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the idea of a finishing blow is a valid one, but, like tallgeese, I'm also a proponent of the idea of combination striking. I think each strike should be performed as a finishing blow, but never singularly. I want to finish the guy with this blow, and this blow, and this blow...and so on, as tallgeese mentioned, until the threat is neutralized.

I think of it the same way I think about a lethal force situation involving a handgun. I'm not going to shoot a lethal threat once, and then check to see if he/she falls down. I'm going to keep shooting until the threat is down.

Well put and we're on the same page. Always trying to maximize and always ready to do it again. In my experience I find that proper kime (focus at the peak) is only achieved in such a way one is by virtue of kamea (posture, preparedness) ready to do it again, as if part of the follow-through, such as it is. One may or may not hold their position at the end of an attack but the muscles should be instantly relaxed without losing control.

[tallgeese]

I don't think a bunch of bobbing and weaving will help you in most situations. Just like throwing perpetual front kicks won't help you either. I'd recommend one bob or weave used in conjunction with an entering strike or takedown attempt. While you're down there you might latch your hand or teeth around his reproductive organs - it's pretty useful.

Used as a feint I'm sure its worth it but for the most part all that movement gives the old dogs more transition to catch you in. IMO.

Or, more practically, a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one and as such it should be harder to catch one moving the target properly.

[MasterPain]

As a terribly uncoordinated person, I only move my head when something is moving toward it with mass and velocity. That said, people who use head movement well are harder to hit.