head movement in Karate

[budoguy]

Hi everyone, i'm new here so this is my first post.

I've been training shotokan karate for about 2 and a half years now. My Sensei focuses primarily on building our technique with constant repetition of punch/kick combinations, all kata based. We spar everyday but without punches to the face, only the head under circumstances, and during drills.

I love Karate, i've studied it since I was a kid, but even after years of practice I can't seem to get the rhythm down when sparring other styles. I train bjj as well and I go to this mma club at my college where people tend to spar really intensely.

The other day I was at that club and decided to try sparring with this boxer I met. I've never done boxing before, and I have to admit I felt lost in there. The gloves were gigantic compared to what we use at my dojo so that threw me off a bit. He started doing the typical bob and weave tactic moving his head left and right and throwing wild hooks over the top which were pretty easy to predict and move away from, but then I landed a quick shot to his nose not even too hard and he got a bit crazy head hunting the rest of the time. I kept trying to parry and counterstrike like I normally do but with those big gloves on it just wasn't working. I got my face beat up.

Now, had we allowed kicks it might have been a different story because the majority of my combinations tend to start or end with kicks which i've gotten quite good at landing.

Basically i'm wondering though, for the next time I end up in this situation.. should I just stick to my footwork and timing to avoid getting decked in the face? Or would it be better to bob and weave like a boxer in that instance? Keep in mind i'm talking about sparring with punches only. We practice some head movement at my dojo, but nothing like what i've seen boxers do. I'll probably never do that again but it was kind of fun so you never know.

How were you taught at your dojo? Do other karate styles have this type of head movement?

[tallgeese]

Yes, we've always incorporated head movement. Still, even at that, when I trained for a time a college boxing I came away with even more movement. It's a science that really makes those bobbing and weaving motions part of their core belief system.

For a reason, it's very effective against all types of artist. I brought that movement away from boxing and have used it to one degree or another ever sense.

MMA fighters (which I did for a time) also use head motion like that that of boxers, again, depending on the fighter, to a high degree. Because it works.

The addition of the larger gloves will alter parries a bit. You'll find covering more useful and I'd encourage you to learn to do it. I still use this as part of my defensive scheme as well.

I learned alot from brief stint training in boxing. I think it's something that all martial artists can benefit from training in.

[budoguy]

MMA fighters (which I did for a time) also use head motion like that that of boxers, again, depending on the fighter, to a high degree. Because it works.

The addition of the larger gloves will alter parries a bit. You'll find covering more useful and I'd encourage you to learn to do it. I still use this as part of my defensive scheme as well.

I learned alot from brief stint training in boxing. I think it's something that all martial artists can benefit from training in.

You're right about covering with the gloves, i'm not used to it but I learned it in muay thai sparring years ago. I probably should have kept my hands up more now that I think of it. As for slipping punches, I always thought dropping my head that low made my movement difficult, although it can easily be compensated as i've seen. Guess it depends on the fighter and the situation. In most situations I just block and counter and it hits everytime. I'll definitely practice those more though.

[kansascityshuffle]

Bobbing and weaving is a horrible thing to do when kicks and knees are allowed.

I've seen more than a couple fighters get knocked out by bobbing and weaving. What typically happens is a chudan mawashi geri (karate or MT style) is thrown and the person will bob right into it!

I purposely don't teach my students how to bob and weave but I teach them how to slip punches. I also primarily have them do Kyokushin rules kumite and Muay Thai sparring.

With that being said, boxing will only help out your karate, as long as you don't bob & weave. Boxing will help out anybody that's a striker. However, there are some things in boxing that have to be modified for MMA/Muay Thai/Karate. The lead jab and hook without gloves isn't half as effective and the bobbing & weaving is another thing. Almost everything else is pure gold.

[tallgeese]

I have to say this has not been my experience. I'd also hazard a guess that statistically, it might not bear out, but I'm far too lazy to do the work to see. Also, and incrediablely unscientific, it isn't what I've personally, antedoctially, seen and experienced. Which again, personal application is something that ma's are all about.

I'm assuming the tactic you're talking about is a front kick or knee. It's a threat to get caught with, yes. However, if you train boxing for a bit, you'll see that you'll rarely use this tactic when the opponants body weight is capable of producing a front leg tactic with any real power. Further, the tactic should have either moved you to, or already be applied, from deep withing punching distance. Making kicks much less thretening.

If you're training with good boxers, you'll not the bobing occurs from the knee bend. Thus keeping the back straightish. This prevents the placement of the head from being bent over for presentation. It should also be preformed with the hands up, thus adding another level of defense.

When used from iniside, and done proplerly, bobbing can nicely set up the double or single leg as well, furhter adding to its usefulness.

Weaving, which is simply a flowing out of distance and angle of attack, might be more likley to leave one open to a counter that the bob. Still, I think we can all say that evasion that certainly allows one to avoid being hit, despite the fact that it does not remove one from all possibility of harm (we're talking about a fight after all) is a good thing. Another tool for the box if trainined properly.

I often had the same arguments until I spent some detailed time working soley boxing. Then, and here is a sticking point, it takes some time to learn to do properly and then intergrate. However, it's been shown to be effective. You'll see alot of top level MMA atletes specifically training boxing now and using bobs and such (one only needs to look at the evoluting of so called "dirty boxing" aspects to see it's influence). This is in an arena where, for all the naysayers about rules, one can still front kick and knee while standing at any point. This should say something about the pressure testing of a tool for combat use where the rules match what can happen in the street.

Again; however, ma's are, or should be, about what YOU can make work under duress. Not me, or your coach, or anyone else. Part of this is determined by your own level of comfort with a tactic (for the research on this reference Warrior Mindset by Asken). If one's made up their mind, then it's probably not a good tactic for you. That's fine. But blanket stating across the board that it's bad, for me, misinterperts the intended use and conduct of the tactic.

[ps1]

Bobbing and weaving is a horrible thing to do when kicks and knees are allowed.

I've seen more than a couple fighters get knocked out by bobbing and weaving. What typically happens is a chudan mawashi geri (karate or MT style) is thrown and the person will bob right into it!

I purposely don't teach my students how to bob and weave but I teach them how to slip punches. I also primarily have them do Kyokushin rules kumite and Muay Thai sparring.

With that being said, boxing will only help out your karate, as long as you don't bob & weave. Boxing will help out anybody that's a striker. However, there are some things in boxing that have to be modified for MMA/Muay Thai/Karate. The lead jab and hook without gloves isn't half as effective and the bobbing & weaving is another thing. Almost everything else is pure gold.

I'd have to disagree. BOXERS get hit with the knees and kicks because they are not used to them. However, once they learn distance and kicking, they can bob and weave very effectively. This has been my experience in 8 years of MMA training and coaching.

The lead jab isn't a strong strike. It's a guage and guide. It puts your opponent where you want them to be for your cross and hook. It also lets you get a feel for distance. Adding a leg kick in the mix can do the same thing, however.

For the OP:

That said, the CONSTANT bobbing a weaving shouldn't be done if you're trying to add it into your karate. Just a one or two in order to set you up for a strong strike. Hit one or two times and get out. That's how you try to incorporate it into karate. Karate footwork on the outside, boxing footwork inside, back out to karate footwork.

Also, I would highly suggest going there more often. It's good to train with people from other systems. It keeps you honest. Do some rounds of boxing, then offer to do some rounds that allow kicks too. This way you can see how you're doing once you add them in. I do agree with kansascityshuffle that you will catch the boxer mid bob with your kicks. Then he'll learn something too.

Let us know how it goes.

[ps1]

Again; however, ma's are, or should be, about what YOU can make work under duress. Not me, or your coach, or anyone else. Part of this is determined by your own level of comfort with a tactic (for the research on this reference Warrior Mindset by Asken). If one's made up their mind, then it's probably not a good tactic for you. That's fine. But blanket stating across the board that it's bad, for me, misinterperts the intended use and conduct of the tactic.

This is one of the more significant points that can be made on any forum in any thread anywhere. Nicely put!

[kansascityshuffle]

Bobbing and weaving is a horrible thing to do when kicks and knees are allowed.

I've seen more than a couple fighters get knocked out by bobbing and weaving. What typically happens is a chudan mawashi geri (karate or MT style) is thrown and the person will bob right into it!

I purposely don't teach my students how to bob and weave but I teach them how to slip punches. I also primarily have them do Kyokushin rules kumite and Muay Thai sparring.

With that being said, boxing will only help out your karate, as long as you don't bob & weave. Boxing will help out anybody that's a striker. However, there are some things in boxing that have to be modified for MMA/Muay Thai/Karate. The lead jab and hook without gloves isn't half as effective and the bobbing & weaving is another thing. Almost everything else is pure gold.

I'd have to disagree. BOXERS get hit with the knees and kicks because they are not used to them. However, once they learn distance and kicking, they can bob and weave very effectively. This has been my experience in 8 years of MMA training and coaching.

The lead jab isn't a strong strike. It's a guage and guide. It puts your opponent where you want them to be for your cross and hook. It also lets you get a feel for distance. Adding a leg kick in the mix can do the same thing, however.

For the OP:

That said, the CONSTANT bobbing a weaving shouldn't be done if you're trying to add it into your karate. Just a one or two in order to set you up for a strong strike. Hit one or two times and get out. That's how you try to incorporate it into karate. Karate footwork on the outside, boxing footwork inside, back out to karate footwork.

Also, I would highly suggest going there more often. It's good to train with people from other systems. It keeps you honest. Do some rounds of boxing, then offer to do some rounds that allow kicks too. This way you can see how you're doing once you add them in. I do agree with kansascityshuffle that you will catch the boxer mid bob with your kicks. Then he'll learn something too.

Let us know how it goes.

Without sound like a complete jerk, I'm talking about those with pro boxing and Muay Thai fight experience or a considerable amount of amateur boxing experience to golden gloves level, and titles under their belt, people I trained with, fought against, and worked the corners of. I'm no keyboard warrior and if you pm me I can let you know who I am and my complete background. I'm speaking from experience, and why I don't teach my students to bob & weave. Not because I wasn't trained how to and don't know how to, but because I'm not training them for boxing fights. Hard enough to train them for knockdown rules and Muay Thai rules as it is.

I do agree that if a boxer isn't accustomed to kicks and knees this isn't in their favor but the same goes for somebody that's not used to fighting against a good boxer...I've known good Thaiboxers to lose to boxers and good boxers to lose to Thaiboxers to support that can go both ways.

I'm speaking of the nature of bobbing & weaving, just the same as those that want to do a complete 360 exposing their back after doing a "Thai style" roundhouse . Which by the way, is taught as a huge no no by every Thai Ajarn and Kru I ever trained under...

Under boxing rules, bobbing & weaving with your combinations is great, just not under anything that allows knees and kicks was my original point.

[tallgeese]

In regard to the "keyboard warrior" stuff and qulifications to talk about these sorts of things, I think the same can be said of ps1 and myself. No one is questioning anyone credentials. I'm just saying that from my experience the bobbing is not half as bad as one would think v. front kicks and knees. I just haven't seen it. It doesn't change the body mechanics enough to produce a radical opening.

Part of this probably goes to what different camps have spent time drilling to make work and neither of us are arguing for the kick of which you spoke. We're just saying that if applied properly, and drilled to a state of readiness, that particular tactic (bobbing as a defensive scheme) has been shown to work in my experience.

Here's the bottom line that goes to the OP: You've got yourself the perfect laboratory. An MMA club with guys with varied backgrounds. Get together with them, do some focused sparring with you kicking and kneeing while the boxer works his defensive scheme. See how it works for yourself, evaluate it. Now, use your current defensive paradigm vs. a kicker and kneer. See how that goes. Then spend some time drilling boxing patterns of defensive movement and work it vs. the kicker and see how things go. You could have no clearer answer.

Don't take my word, or someone else ever. Pressure test these things. Now, I understand that you may need time to train up to a certain level to adequately evaluate something. If it looks like it's worth doing consider it lab time and go to work.

This kind of thing will give you and idea, while not perfect at the outset, of whether or not you thing that integrating those movement patterns will work FOR YOU. Then you can tailor your training to accommodate.

Personally, this is something I encourage martial artist to do occasionally thru their entire career. Look at their goals (they will after all change), evaluate what their training is prepping them for (honestly, brutally honestly), and see if the two are on a course to meet.

If something works for you, use it IF you've realistically tested it against your goal. If something doesn't, even if it is from the grand high-master of whatever art, don't use it. Each individual must make his innate traits work with what he's using tactically. This includes differences between us that are physical and psychological. Now factor in any number of goals and you can see why one's art should be a highly individualized structure.

Go for it, make use of the lab you have access to and let us know how it goes towards meeting your goals. Good luck.

[Liver Punch]

While he doesn't bend at the waist and move his head around like he's having a seizure, Ernesto Hoost was a pretty high level kickboxer who over bobbed and weaved his way around a punch to gain entry. He seemed to have a fair amount of success..

Bobbing and weaving leave you susceptible to getting hit with knees because of elevation changes. Dropping to, (or nearly to) one knee while moving toward an opponent would also leave you open to such shots. Oddly enough, wrestlers seem to complete far more shots on strikers than strikers land a clean knee shot while being shot on. Further more, pure boxers seem to get picked apart by leg shot due to stance far more than they tend to be knocked out by a knee or kick due to bobbing and weaving.