Self Defense... against a child

[DWx]

Yes I appreciate how weird that sounds

This is part rant, part question so bear with me.

Basically I'm of Chinese/West Indian descent and that seems to make me a good target for the more backward elements of society. I used to get the whole racism thing a lot as a kid but you just learn to deal with it as there really is no reasoning with anyone who does decide to pick on you based on ethnicity.

Anyway I've recently moved into the rougher neighborhood of town for university accommodation this year and 3 weeks into the uni term and I've had as many "incidents". With teens/adults who do it, its not really a problem as they often just want to say their piece and then go back to the rock they crawled out from and I know if they did get too aggressive, I've got no reservations about smacking them first.

But today I had this badman kid all up in face, complete with supporting cast of wannabe gangsters. Was probably only about 11-12 years old but was getting pretty aggressive when I didn't seem bothered by what he was saying. Most of it was trying to look tough in front of his friends and they only joined in after he'd given me a good spiel about "going back to my own country". Threw some stuff but eventually went away.

My question really is what am I supposed to do with a kid who is looking for a fight. Not too bothered about them physically hurting me, but at the same time I'm not just going to stand there and get punched in the face. Yet it looks really bad if, as an adult, I strike a child. Can just see the headlines now: "21 yr old martial artist attacks child". No good just restraining him if its a large group as they'll potentially all join in to make me let go. And if I just release them without ending it with a strike etc. there's the possibility they'll just come back for more.

I appreciate that this is probably something that you guys don't come across yourselves but would love to hear your thoughts on this. Especially interested in what you LEO guys think.

[Lupin1]

Tell him to go home to mommy. Or go into a rant in perfect English using lots of big words he doesn't understand about what an idiot he's being and ask him to defend himself if he's so smart. Embarassing him in front of his friends will probably either A) make him lay off or B) provoke him to physically attack you so you can quickly yet gently as possible put him on his back and walk away. Don't ignore him, but engage with him. I doubt he's expecting that.

[tallgeese]

First up, I'm sorry you have to deal with this kind of garbage in the 21st. century. Unfortunately, idiocy is everywhere and we have our share bigots as well floating around here. I have; however, never had to deal with it directed towards me.

There are a couple of things to consider when we start looking at situations like this. First up, is there any conceivable way to avoid these individuals? Not because what they are doing is in anyway alright, but simply because it's easier for you to not have to put yourself thru this. It alleviates any concern about unintentionally setting case law in your jurisdiction.

Groups like this will often claim certain territory or hang outs. They may or may not venture too far afield from these. It might be worth some research with others in the neighborhood to find out what their usual hangs are. This makes staying out of their way all the easier.

Next up, report every incident to your authorities. Even if they can't do anything (I'm not up on what your legalities are there, but here, the incident you describe would itself lead to some sort of action), you start a paper trail on the incidents there. This will help build a case for action.

It will also lead to the identification of the offenders and bring their behavior to the attention of the police. Once locals get a lead on this kind of thing, they tend to keep and eye out for the trouble makes on their beat and intervene in their lives whenever possible. This often makes them hang out elsewhere and while it does not solve the problem, it alleviates your having to deal with it. That's a win.

As to the group dynamic, I'd give a couple things consideration. One, don't underestimate them. Ever. Don't think of them as kids, they are predators. Just smaller than average. An FBI study here in the states showed that your average violent offender who attempts to kill a cop committed his first violent felony at about age 12-13. Right in your range. Don't be the first victim.

Getting away is always best. I prefer thinking about the destruction of the nearest, loudest one at the outset to set the tone. Then flee. In a best case world I leave his broken body between me and the rest of them to serve as a psychological barrier to attack. Stepping over your groups maimed alpha male to continue an attack that you didn't start takes some work.

I understand this is harder with 12 year olds.

Consider training movements to a rear naked choke from standing. Then you get to use him as a limpish body shield from the others while you negotiate your escape.

Never assume they won't have weapons. Even kids this young have plenty of precedence for carrying. If one presents itself realize you're in a deadly force encounter regardless of the age of the hand it's in. Treat it accordingly.

Lastly, regardless of age, they are a pack. You might need to treat them as such. If you can carry pepper spray in your neck of the woods it might be a good idea. Remember to get an inert trainer and practice deploying during you sparring sessions at a minimum. This will let you do it under duress. There is not 100% guarantee it will work, however, it works enough of the time to give you an edge.

In most places, if a subject is aggressive or refuses to get away that's enough to deploy. If they are saying they are going to hurt you, it's more than enough. Again, start with the instigator and hose the pack. Then beat feet and report the incident.

That's the route I'd go. In that order. Be ready to move between and and all of the force options available to you. If hostilities ensue, and I can't stress this enough, don't consider them to be misguided kids. They are the enemy. They are a target. Engage them like that. Mindset cannot account for how they should act, only how they are acting. To do less is to lessen your chances of successfully resolving the situation.

Good luck and keep us posted on the situation.

[DWx]

Thanks for the replies thus far folks.

Tell him to go home to mommy. Or go into a rant in perfect English using lots of big words he doesn't understand about what an idiot he's being and ask him to defend himself if he's so smart. Embarassing him in front of his friends will probably either A) make him lay off or B) provoke him to physically attack you so you can quickly yet gently as possible put him on his back and walk away. Don't ignore him, but engage with him. I doubt he's expecting that.

Thanks for responding Lupin1. Unfortunately years of dealing of this as a kid and the less frequent encounters as an adult taught me that arguing with them really doesn't help. In most instances they don't listen to a word you're saying or, if they are, its fuel for them to carry on. Or the best response I get sometimes is them pretending they don't understand me at all and doing Bruce Lee-esque noises. Which is ridiculous seeing as I don't speak a word of Chinese and have the most midlands-English accent possible. Most the time I can't be bothered to engage them so just roll my eyes and carry on with my business. Although today I did retaliate with a few choice word and got a nice description of how he'd rather have sex with a donkey, pig or tramp "than touch a Jap" (didn't even get the nationality right).

[Lupin1]

Thanks for the replies thus far folks.

Tell him to go home to mommy. Or go into a rant in perfect English using lots of big words he doesn't understand about what an idiot he's being and ask him to defend himself if he's so smart. Embarassing him in front of his friends will probably either A) make him lay off or B) provoke him to physically attack you so you can quickly yet gently as possible put him on his back and walk away. Don't ignore him, but engage with him. I doubt he's expecting that.

Thanks for responding Lupin1. Unfortunately years of dealing of this as a kid and the less frequent encounters as an adult taught me that arguing with them really doesn't help. In most instances they don't listen to a word you're saying or, if they are, its fuel for them to carry on. Or the best response I get sometimes is them pretending they don't understand me at all and doing Bruce Lee-esque noises. Which is ridiculous seeing as I don't speak a word of Chinese and have the most midlands-English accent possible. Most the time I can't be bothered to engage them so just roll my eyes and carry on with my business. Although today I did retaliate with a few choice word and got a nice description of how he'd rather have sex with a donkey, pig or tramp "than touch a Jap" (didn't even get the nationality right).

Yeah. It's probably just the way I was raised. I got suspended once because some boy punched me the nose (zero tolerance) and my mom wasn't mad I got suspended, she was mad I didn't punch him back. She grew up in innercity Boston and is the kid who if someone talks smack about her or her family, she'll retaliate.

If someone made a comment about the donkey, pig or tramp thing to me I'd probably make a very inappropriate quip about him going to see his mother and he could get all three in one...

[DWx]

Thanks for the detailed response tallgeese, I appreciate it.

First up, I'm sorry you have to deal with this kind of garbage in the 21st. century. Unfortunately, idiocy is everywhere and we have our share bigots as well floating around here. I have; however, never had to deal with it directed towards me.

Doesn't particular bother me that much anymore, it gets old very quickly. Its more of an annoyance than a real problem. I just feel sorry for people like this and their shortsightedness.

There are a couple of things to consider when we start looking at situations like this. First up, is there any conceivable way to avoid these individuals? Not because what they are doing is in anyway alright, but simply because it's easier for you to not have to put yourself thru this. It alleviates any concern about unintentionally setting case law in your jurisdiction.

Groups like this will often claim certain territory or hang outs. They may or may not venture too far afield from these. It might be worth some research with others in the neighborhood to find out what their usual hangs are. This makes staying out of their way all the easier.

That is something that I did learn as a kid. So yeah I have and do sometimes go out of my way and have sussed out where they hang out (I also used to live a couple of blocks over for the previous two years so know the area well). Having said that, I'm living smack bang in the middle of the area this year so I've got no choice but to walk through part of it. However this thing with the kids happened right on the edge of campus which is atypical because normally they wouldn't be that far up the main street so in this instance it wasn't a case of me walking into their territory.

I have to say martial arts was the best thing that's happened to me. I used to get stuff like this a lot more when I was really young but TKD has made me loads more confident, (if a little over-confident), so I normally just go wherever I want with a "come-on-and-try-me attitude". Works to some degree and I have actually had people apologize after saying/doing things. I admit this'll probably get me into trouble one day but the other extreme of walking round looking like the victim is only an invitation for it to all kick off.

Next up, report every incident to your authorities. Even if they can't do anything (I'm not up on what your legalities are there, but here, the incident you describe would itself lead to some sort of action), you start a paper trail on the incidents there. This will help build a case for action.

It will also lead to the identification of the offenders and bring their behavior to the attention of the police. Once locals get a lead on this kind of thing, they tend to keep and eye out for the trouble makes on their beat and intervene in their lives whenever possible. This often makes them hang out elsewhere and while it does not solve the problem, it alleviates your having to deal with it. That's a win.

Yeah I do know that that would help, just I am a little skeptical of the police over here. You get a vibe of "well what do you want me to do about it?". Especially seeing as I don't think I could identify anyone in particular.

As to the group dynamic, I'd give a couple things consideration. One, don't underestimate them. Ever. Don't think of them as kids, they are predators. Just smaller than average. An FBI study here in the states showed that your average violent offender who attempts to kill a cop committed his first violent felony at about age 12-13. Right in your range. Don't be the first victim.

Getting away is always best. I prefer thinking about the destruction of the nearest, loudest one at the outset to set the tone. Then flee. In a best case world I leave his broken body between me and the rest of them to serve as a psychological barrier to attack. Stepping over your groups maimed alpha male to continue an attack that you didn't start takes some work.

I understand this is harder with 12 year olds.

Actually getting the loudest / biggest one was what my dad taught me as a kid and it is what I'd do with older teens or adults. Thanks for the tip about using them as a barrier. I think my biggest problem is getting over the psychological issue of them being kids and me being an adult.

Consider training movements to a rear naked choke from standing. Then you get to use him as a limpish body shield from the others while you negotiate your escape.

That's where my basis in TKD lets me down I'm afraid. Very limited on the non-striking front. I guess I could see if I could learn something with training partners.

Never assume they won't have weapons. Even kids this young have plenty of precedence for carrying. If one presents itself realize you're in a deadly force encounter regardless of the age of the hand it's in. Treat it accordingly.

I hope I'd react accordingly if one pulled a knife. I'd like to think I wouldn't hold back because they're a kid but you never know until it actually happens. My concern is that I don't want to presume they already have a weapon and then injure them more than necessary and face the legal ramifications afterwards.

Lastly, regardless of age, they are a pack. You might need to treat them as such. If you can carry pepper spray in your neck of the woods it might be a good idea. Remember to get an inert trainer and practice deploying during you sparring sessions at a minimum. This will let you do it under duress. There is not 100% guarantee it will work, however, it works enough of the time to give you an edge.

In most places, if a subject is aggressive or refuses to get away that's enough to deploy. If they are saying they are going to hurt you, it's more than enough. Again, start with the instigator and hose the pack. Then beat feet and report the incident.

Pepper spray's illegal over here. Very strict on what's classed as a weapon.

[DWx]

Thanks for the replies thus far folks.

Tell him to go home to mommy. Or go into a rant in perfect English using lots of big words he doesn't understand about what an idiot he's being and ask him to defend himself if he's so smart. Embarassing him in front of his friends will probably either A) make him lay off or B) provoke him to physically attack you so you can quickly yet gently as possible put him on his back and walk away. Don't ignore him, but engage with him. I doubt he's expecting that.

Thanks for responding Lupin1. Unfortunately years of dealing of this as a kid and the less frequent encounters as an adult taught me that arguing with them really doesn't help. In most instances they don't listen to a word you're saying or, if they are, its fuel for them to carry on. Or the best response I get sometimes is them pretending they don't understand me at all and doing Bruce Lee-esque noises. Which is ridiculous seeing as I don't speak a word of Chinese and have the most midlands-English accent possible. Most the time I can't be bothered to engage them so just roll my eyes and carry on with my business. Although today I did retaliate with a few choice word and got a nice description of how he'd rather have sex with a donkey, pig or tramp "than touch a Jap" (didn't even get the nationality right).

Yeah. It's probably just the way I was raised. I got suspended once because some boy punched me the nose (zero tolerance) and my mom wasn't mad I got suspended, she was mad I didn't punch him back. She grew up in innercity Boston and is the kid who if someone talks smack about her or her family, she'll retaliate.

If someone made a comment about the donkey, pig or tramp thing to me I'd probably make a very inappropriate quip about him going to see his mother and he could get all three in one...

No I get that. My dad is the same. And he grew up with my grandma in 1950s, 1960s Britain and she happens to be German so he got loads of Nazi/Hitler comments as a kid. I just prefer not to get sucked in because I can't be bothered tbh. There's only ever been one time when I did get semi-physical: once a kid on a bike was harassing me and my younger sister to the point I lost my cool. Pulled his bike out from underneath him and chucked it over the side of the bridge we were on. I walked away and he burst into tears.

Ha yes well I think I annoyed him further after that because I couldn't stop myself from laughing at him and then I did say something that is best not repeated on here

[tallgeese]

Bummer about the pepper spray. That can be a major advantage in the kind of conflict we're talking about here. Well, let's move on.

If you worry about mentally being able to treat a ganger like an adult in conflict then I think cross training in some grappling might be a great idea for you. I'd focus on some form of standing grappling. Stay up, stay mobile, but have the ability to put one down by constricting blood flow to the brain. Maybe see if there is an aikijujutsu clubs nearby willing to help out with some tactical options. There are certain sects of JKD that work on this sort of thing as well.

I'd also, considering the understandable adverse reaction to busting up a 12 year old, work on some visualization in regard to the situation. If you start to mentally desensitize to the idea, execution under pressure will be more viable. I recommend it since the aggressors in question are outside of you scope of experience and not what you probably think of when your training. As it happens, there's a thread on the subject GS started just below.

Lastly, file a report despite your misgivings. You want to start a paper train should anything happen. If nothing else, it points the finger at the cops if something happens and nothing was done. Nothing irritates me more than cops that don't want to go do cop things.

[MasterPain]

Tell him to go home to mommy. Or go into a rant in perfect English using lots of big words he doesn't understand about what an idiot he's being and ask him to defend himself if he's so smart. Embarassing him in front of his friends will probably either A) make him lay off or B) provoke him to physically attack you so you can quickly yet gently as possible put him on his back and walk away. Don't ignore him, but engage with him. I doubt he's expecting that.

I don't know about there, but here, provocation legally negates any claim to self defense when dealing with the attack that you provoked.

Also, these are not "just kids" They are ignorant people who have been taught hatred for most of their short life. With numbers or weapons, this could get deadly. I'd study up on the self defense laws in your area, and mentally and physically be prepared to do whatever is necessary to come out of the worst case scenario in one piece.

[bushido_man96]

I think tallgeese covered that pretty well. One thing to consider should you have to go the physical route is what you say during the encounter. If you continually shout things like "Leave me alone!" and "Stop hitting me!" it will help your cause, showing you are not the instigator, but are defending yourself. Food for thought. I hope this goes away soon for you.