Adaptation due to MMA

[tallgeese]

Just a question to the more traditionally minded karate practitioners out there who've been around a bit. Have you or your school modified or adapted your training methods since the advent of MMA.

As we all live in the post-MMA martial world now, and it's had such an impact both in sport and ma training it would be interesting to see how people have adapted in regards to it. No judgment here, just curiousity.

I'm not getting at who has jumped from karate to MMA, although I'd be curious to the thought process, but more to the kin of has your training methodology been altered to deal with what we've seen come out of MMA.

More focus mitts? In a live setting? More free sparring? Access to ground tactics? Defense against ground tactics? If you've addressed these potentially new concerns where did you go for information? More cardio?

Did anyone add MMA training to their individual routine? Why? How has that worked out with your traditional background? has there been room for both?

This just stems out of discussion some CT guys and I were having during training the other day and I'm curious about the impact with the people here.

[Montana]

Just a question to the more traditionally minded karate practitioners out there who've been around a bit. Have you or your school modified or adapted your training methods since the advent of MMA.

As we all live in the post-MMA martial world now, and it's had such an impact both in sport and ma training it would be interesting to see how people have adapted in regards to it. No judgment here, just curiousity.

I'm not getting at who has jumped from karate to MMA, although I'd be curious to the thought process, but more to the kin of has your training methodology been altered to deal with what we've seen come out of MMA.

More focus mitts? In a live setting? More free sparring? Access to ground tactics? Defense against ground tactics? If you've addressed these potentially new concerns where did you go for information? More cardio?

Did anyone add MMA training to their individual routine? Why? How has that worked out with your traditional background? has there been room for both?

This just stems out of discussion some CT guys and I were having during training the other day and I'm curious about the impact with the people here.

In a word, No...I haven't made any changes to what I teach because of MMA, movies, pressure from students to add breaking or flashy techniques.

I teach my students what I was taught by my sensei (and various other higher sensei that I have worked with) as closely as I can. I believe 100% in my chosen system, flawed or not, and have successfully defended myself numerous times, including against 3 younger opponents ON THE STREET, using what I have learned in the past 36 years. That's good enough for me, so why change it?

Now, if I was training students for the ring, not the street, then yes, I'd probably start doing some modifying of the system, but since I'm not, nor ever will...the system stays the way it was taught to me unless somebody over my head tells me I'm doing it wrong.

[Shotoseidoka]

Also, no...as a traditional style the school will have some ground fighting, joint locks, take-downs, etc...

And really, if I already do a round-house why whould I need to adapt a Maui Thai round house? As far as using focus mits...thats just good training for striking, nothing MMA about them.

As other training goes, if they're coming to me to learn something I'm not going to spend a lot of time wearing them out...I'm not training them to be profesional fighters, but I will relay to them the importance of being fit for a healthier lifestyle.

[brickshooter]

I've notice that some organizations (not just individual dojos) have added ground curriculum to their syllabus. While other organizations have been more open minded to Kata interpretations, or searched out their Okinawan roots which interprets their Katas more than simple bunch of punches and kicks.

Personally, I've taken up Judo training... or rather, returned to Judo which I've long ago erroneously dismissed as useless. Several years ago I've tried a couple of MMA gyms but found them all to teach exactly BJJ + MuayThai rather than a full spectrum of martial arts. And when not doing Judo, I tend to migrate back and forth between different Karate styles.

I will likely dabble in BJJ. But at a dedicated and reputable BJJ school rather than a jack of all trait MMA gym. However, I'm not seen a school with reasonable fees nor without an outrageously long term contract that I have no intention of signing.

[tallgeese]

Also, no...as a traditional style the school will have some ground fighting, joint locks, take-downs, etc...

And really, if I already do a round-house why whould I need to adapt a Maui Thai round house? As far as using focus mits...thats just good training for striking, nothing MMA about them.

As other training goes, if they're coming to me to learn something I'm not going to spend a lot of time wearing them out...I'm not training them to be profesional fighters, but I will relay to them the importance of being fit for a healthier lifestyle.

The first thing that pops to my mind in regard to the MT round house is that it attacks a different target than is practical for a traditional round kick. Just my thoughts.

In regard to the focus mitts, I ask because it's an area of interest to me. I've been around kempo based systems for years as well as MMA. Throw in some boxing here and there and what I've noticed that while trad ma-ists might use focus mitts, they usually use them more statically than other forms. Let me say, MOST karate schools tend to use them in a manner less than optimally. So maybe they are not MMA exclusive, but again, it's a look at the methodology that goes into their use.

[tallgeese]

I've notice that some organizations (not just individual dojos) have added ground curriculum to their syllabus. While other organizations have been more open minded to Kata interpretations, or searched out their Okinawan roots which interprets their Katas more than simple bunch of punches and kicks.

Personally, I've taken up Judo training... or rather, returned to Judo which I've long ago erroneously dismissed as useless. Several years ago I've tried a couple of MMA gyms but found them all to teach exactly BJJ + MuayThai rather than a full spectrum of martial arts. And when not doing Judo, I tend to migrate back and forth between different Karate styles.

I will likely dabble in BJJ. But at a dedicated and reputable BJJ school rather than a jack of all trait MMA gym. However, I'm not seen a school with reasonable fees nor without an outrageously long term contract that I have no intention of signing.

I've seen that trend as well, karate organizations utilizing kata to teach ground concepts. I've never been a fan, since it seems like revisionist spin and not much else. It strikes me as odd that most of us will say that learning mas from a textbook alone is a bad idea;however, some organizations will use kata, a moving textbook, to teach ground work. Pre-UFC 1 there was no talk of ground work passes along in kata. There were no teachers really saying "this is what this means". Now, we're making stuff up, in an environment entirely different that the ground, and saying it works because it's in kata.

I hear what you're saying about a pure BJJ school. I was involved in mma for years doing grappling. It wasn't until I was in an academy whose sole focus was BJJ that I really feel like I started to appreciate and understand the ground game.

[Dobbersky]

We Have Kudo Daito Juko which is Kyokushin and Judo Mix which has arrived quite recently

I've always used locks and throws and sweaps in my Karate and Groundwork so nothing different there for me

[ShoriKid]

Well, it's an interesting question. I mean, what we teach hasn't so much got to do with watching MMA and saying "Holly crap, time to change what we're doing." It was more like watching something happen, nodding and going, "Well, yeah, and?" I wrestled in high school before I ever started my karate training though. So closing the gap to get to the group, knowing how to defend a take down and good cardio conditioning(I had a reputation for going the distance in matches my senior year) were the norm for me.

We were actually talking about this in a round about way the other night as we were leaving the dojo. What we do would not be found in the majority of karate schools. We've had grappling as a component of our training since we started, mostly a mix of wrestling and judo base from our first instructors, since we started up. Pitbulljudoka went and got some actual BJJ training going on, so we are getting a major lift in that area. We have always used focus mitts for striking (I miss, miss, miss my makawari though), pads for kicking and boxing gloves present. We often start stationary and then start people moving with the pads once they have the basic mechanics down. Sparring uses standard MMA rules for a good short hand for the reality of what can happen. We've always, since I started training, looked for practical application of kata. And we haven't just tossed kata in the trash heap, but tried to show from the out set that they are more than pretty things you do for promotions.

I think the two biggest things that MMA's rise and popularity have changed in my karate training are the openness to ideas and the shift in tactics addressed. In Openness I mean that people are more willing to look at what we're doing and nod as opposed to backing away slowly or mocking as something they don't need to do because it isn't what they were taught. Ground work, mitts, rounds for conditioning/skill, the sparring rules and contact level are all things we do that many strict 'traditionalists'(Not EVER meant as an insult, may explain the quotes later) would never go for. The shift in tactics has to do with the rise in MMA popularity. Ten, fifteen years ago, facing a take down in this part of the country meant a football style tackle more than a wrestler's shot, and if it wasn't a kick at the groin, you likely wouldn't face it. Now, you have a ton of guys training in backyards and basements who will shoot a double and throw a round house kick. One of our most dedicated guys was one of them. So now, sprawling, learning to stick in the space makers and shift and learning to check and counter round kicks is more practical. So, it has changed some of the things we emphasis.

So, at risk of sounding like a heretic, yes, my training has changed. I haven't thrown away my traditional karate roots. I feel like I've dug them deeper, but I've let other branches of the tree flourish with some careful tending.

[brickshooter]

I've seen that trend as well, karate organizations utilizing kata to teach ground concepts. I've never been a fan, since it seems like revisionist spin and not much else. It strikes me as odd that most of us will say that learning mas from a textbook alone is a bad idea;however, some organizations will use kata, a moving textbook, to teach ground work. Pre-UFC 1 there was no talk of ground work passes along in kata. There were no teachers really saying "this is what this means". Now, we're making stuff up, in an environment entirely different that the ground, and saying it works because it's in kata.

I hear what you're saying about a pure BJJ school. I was involved in mma for years doing grappling. It wasn't until I was in an academy whose sole focus was BJJ that I really feel like I started to appreciate and understand the ground game.

I came from the Japanese schools so Bunakai was foreign. But I know that the Okinawan styles particularly as practiced in Okinawa have always taught Kata application as more than just a collection of strikes, far before any MMA influence.

They didn't go to the ground. But locks, chokes, joint manipulations were included in their syllabus. The big difference was that they prefered to remain in their feet while appling these locks. Hence the use of low stances. To me locks, throws, trips, chokes appear legitimately in Katas. But to me, Kata is strickly a stand up affair.

Regarding modern equipment such as mitts & punching bags, they were standard equipment in most Karate schools even before MMA. The reason is that it takes 5 minutes to get one from Big 5 Sporting Goods and it takes 3 days to build a makiwara assuming that you even have a place in the dojo to stick it into the ground.

[brickshooter]

We Have Kudo Daito Juko which is Kyokushin and Judo Mix which has arrived quite recently

I've always used locks and throws and sweaps in my Karate and Groundwork so nothing different there for me

Daito Juko was officially available even before the 1st UFC back in the early 90s. It just haven't been popular in the USA until recently.

Mixing styles have been around at least since the 50s on a personal level even if it wasn't officially sanctioned. Guys like Kanawaza (JKA) etc, all have dan grades in Judo before they ever entered the Karate dojo. A large number of these Karate masters were mid-dan Judokas.