Real use for traditional weapon forms?

[skullsplitter]

From some posts here and other sites there seems to be alot of dislike for the XMA style that is creeping into alot of martial arts weapon forms, particularly at open tournaments. I'm not really wanting to debate that, but my question is what should traditional weapons training be used for? I'm talking things like bo, kama, chuks, sai, etc. Is there a practical use for many of these? I can see where knowing bo may come in handy if there's a stick or something on hand, but how often are you going to be carrying your kama or say?

I guess I can see where adding some flash to the weapon form is OK since I can't really see a good practical purpose for knowing a traditional bo form

Now my son does bo and he keeps it very traditional. He has no interest in the XMA style. He's had a running "feud" with another kid on our circuit for the last couple of years. This boy does kama and adds a backflip, some twirls, etc. My son likes to point out that if the two ever battled kama vs bo that the kama kid would be getting a rather hard jab with a bo during his flashy backflips. I see his point, BUT when is that matchup ever going to occur in a real world situation?

[MasterPain]

The traditional Filipino machete was used by a friend to defend himself in his home against a pit bull a couple days back. We have spent a good deal of time with escrima over the years, and while we have fun with it, it's mostly been trained in a practical and realistic manner. Nobody expects to face down a dangerous animal in their apartment, but these things happen. A kama or a bo may seem obsolete and out of another time, but the damage they can deal is still very real. XMA is fun to watch, but if you're going to train a weapon, you should learn to use it effectively first.

[JusticeZero]

Most of them are just for historical preservation, and have very little use. There are other things that are crying out for training with, but don't.

Many do kama forms. Kama is a sickle, a common farming implement and something ubiquitous and beneath noticing in the possession of a peasant. A sickle in the hands of a laborer in the city these days is very unusual and noteworthy, and draws suspicion. Not useful to train anymore.

My own art has some techniques with straight razors. A straight razor was a ubiquitous item a century ago. Nobody would think twice about someone carrying personal hygiene stuff with them, especially if they were likely not able to go home every night. Today, though, most people have never seen one, let alone seen one used. It's a wierd knife, now, and a bit pointless to train.

You can pick up these metal barrel flashlights all over the place. Nobody thinks anything odd about someone carrying a flashlight with them, I mean, they might have to walk home in the dark. Where are the flashlight forms...?

I spend a good chunk of time with a hardened steel U-lock close at hand. Two, actually. Are there any U-lock forms..?

I differ in opinion on this with many people on this forum, but for me, a weapon isn't worth training unless you can leave it around the house or carry it around in public under at least some common circumstances without raising suspicion. And I am disheartened at the lack of commonly available weapon training for tools that meet those criteria. Everyone is too busy trying to be a ninja turtle or a bit character in a wuxia flick.

[Harlan]

First off, one has to understand and accept that 'traditional' weapons arts are a relic of the past. Very few people currently walk to work, their fields, with agricultural implements, and have to worry about defending themselves. Even the more robust of kobudo systems, ones that focus on body mechanics , have good bunkai, are solidly linked to a hearty empty-hand system, and have realistic forms, need to be understood as historical artifacts. When seen at open tournaments, for the most part, good kobudo is unrecognizable by most judges. They simply don't understand what they are looking at or what to look for.

That being said, the question asked is two-fold: is form useful, and is training in traditional weapons useful. I'd say, 'yes' to both. But, it depends on the depth of knowledge of the sensei, developing a deep understanding of the principles of each/any particular weapon, and a willingness to be honest about real-world applicability. (Don't bring a bo to a gunfight.) Many kobudo practitioners are enamoured with form, and don't 'test' it. Like empty-hand, some will keep the most absurd applications to justify a bad form, rather than question.

[bushido_man96]

In my opinion, weapons need to be learned in combination with another person, holding a weapon as well. About the only traditional weapons forms I've had training with are using Jo in Aikido. They were pretty straight-forward, with not many fancy attacks. They were directed and focused jabs, strikes, swings at a target on the body or as a defense against an incoming Jo strike. However, these forms were also complimented with two-person work, which is essential in actually learning and understanding what it is you are doing in the form.

Is the Jo useful to learn? Well, its a big stick, and one could carry a walking stick around, or easily keep several throught the house. But, still, this is a bit of a situational stretch.

The traditional Filipino machete was used by a friend to defend himself in his home against a pit bull a couple days back. We have spent a good deal of time with escrima over the years, and while we have fun with it, it's mostly been trained in a practical and realistic manner.

Is anything equivalent to a "form" used in Escrima training, or is mostly paired work and drills? I've read a book on Escrima, but saw nothing on any kind of forms.

I differ in opinion on this with many people on this forum, but for me, a weapon isn't worth training unless you can leave it around the house or carry it around in public under at least some common circumstances without raising suspicion. And I am disheartened at the lack of commonly available weapon training for tools that meet those criteria.

Like a handgun. In most areas, its easier to get a concealed carry liscense and buy a hand gun to carry around than it would be to carry the traditional weapons mentioned above.

I think its interesting that some people would choose to spend hours per week learning to use a weapon such as those mentioned above that would have a scant chance at being available if needed, but don't want to buy and learn how to properly handle a handgun.

[MasterPain]

I live in the only state with no concealed carry. I'm stuck with a pocket knife.

The thing with escrima is that it's a broad term, like karate. Cinco Teros Escrima has one form that includes the entire system. Here's a nice performance of it.

[JusticeZero]

Well, yes. I strongly approve of handgun training. I also approve of short stick training of various lengths, since it's not hard to find various stick shaped objects. Also flashlights, and any other ubiquitous object.

Sai, various swords, sickles, flails not so much though...

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing that, MasterPain.

[Wastelander]

Personally, I feel that techniques done with stick weapons (bo, jo, escrima, tekko, eiku, etc.) are still pretty applicable as they can be used with just about anything of a similar shape/size--sticks, shovels, mop handles, flashlights, etc. There are some weapons like kama that, while more obscure, can still be useful. What if you have to defend yourself with a weapon and the nearest thing at hand is a hammer? Well, those kama techniques still work with a hammer to some degree.

Really, you can find some value in every weapon, but some are much more valuable than others and your personal philosophy is going to have more impact on what weapons you train than anything.

[Montana]

While I can't argue that traditional weapons are not applicable in this day and age, study and diligent practice of them is IMO.

If you learn the various traditional weapons you will find that that practice will transfer over to many every day objects because you are not only learning specific techniques with specific weapons, but you are teaching your mind and body to use a weapon, each of which has it's own way of working and being manipulated.

Sure, you may not have a jo/bo handy to defend with, but you might find something similar and your body and mind would already have the experiences of drills to know how to utilize it as a weaspon.

You may not have a tinfa handy when attacked by a baseball bat, but maybe you have a MagLite that can be used to block that bat from cracking your head open.

You may not have a set of nunchaku handy, but you know how to use a rope to block, a set of jumper cables to flick, or a towel to trap a weapon, leg or arm.

Personally, I have a "bull cane" in most of my vehicles (my wife won't let me put one in her Rav4) and I think they are GREAT for self defense! If you don't know what a "bull cane" is, check out your local farm and ranch store (I know you all have them, right? lol) and you'll see they are a bit longer than a normal cane and a bit thicker. They are also quite light weight...rattan I think, and they are not only nearly industructable, but they are LEGAL TO CARRY ANYWHERE, including on an airplane. I took one of mine to the UK once about 6 years ago, mostly to just see if I could. I faked a bit of a limp, they looked it over and x-rayed it and on the plane with me it went.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Montana