Karate, a complete fighting system

[sojobo]

I really struggle with this.

If you want to learn Jujutsu go to a Jujutsu club you will learn how to do it a lot better there.

This is the poblem I have with trying to reverse engineer stuff into Kata.

Kata doesn't work that way imo.

Sojobo

I don't know, my judo experience has really opened the door for me on so many of these moves. After all, the human body can only grab and throw another human body in so many ways. Your kata is either in sync with one of them or it isn't.

With most of the styles present now, we can see that specialization has taken place over the years. Judo took to specializing in throws, and Karate tended to take a specialization in striking. I do think the two brought together would only be beneficial to a Martial Artist. And after a time of the curriculum being refined and worked on, it would eventually become its own style, and not two styles put together.

From a combative perspective, I agree with you. If you want a more complete game, then as well as learning Karate learn Jujutsu etc.

My point was more about trying to learn Jujutsu techniques in a Karate environment.

Then we have the more "holistic" argument that by doing that, your are no longer studying Karate for the sake of studying karate - you are simply learning how to become a better fighter.

Don't get me wrong, if that's your goal then fine - but karate offers a lot more than that.

I always think that karate is different things to different people - and I am cool with that.

Who said anyway that Karate has ever been - or was designed to be - a complete fighting system? After all, how do you define complete?

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

Who said anyway that Karate has ever been - or was designed to be - a complete fighting system? After all, how do you define complete?

Sojobo

My question is why wouldn't it be? I do agree that it can be difficult to define "complete" as well, and it goes a bit further than to say "having a little bit of everything."

The other concern I have is why can't Karate evolve and change? It would seem to me to be a benefit if it did; keep the old, add the new.

[sojobo]

Who said anyway that Karate has ever been - or was designed to be - a complete fighting system? After all, how do you define complete?

Sojobo

My question is why wouldn't it be? I do agree that it can be difficult to define "complete" as well, and it goes a bit further than to say "having a little bit of everything."

The other concern I have is why can't Karate evolve and change? It would seem to me to be a benefit if it did; keep the old, add the new.

I think this is where the lines become a little grey.

When we talk of "complete" today, does that mean it would stand up in an MMA octagon? or does it mean it would be effective on the battlefield (or as we call them these days streets!)?

There is Karate and there is self defence.

Naturally, self defence sits at the core of karate but Karate in itself isn't self defence.

I have taught Wado-ryu karate now for over a decade and I decided a long time back to remove the wording self defence from anywhere on our clubs website and literature.

Fact is that karate does evolve and it does change. The Karate I do now is quite different to what I did 25 years ago - but in the most part, thats down to approach - not content.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

There is Karate and there is self defence.

Naturally, self defence sits at the core of karate but Karate in itself isn't self defence.

I think this is something that tends to be a point against Karate when it comes to those who begin to question its effectiveness.

I have taught Wado-ryu karate now for over a decade and I decided a long time back to remove the wording self defence from anywhere on our clubs website and literature.

I commend you for this. My question, then, is how do you define what you teach?

[sojobo]

I teach (to the best of my ability) Wado-ryu.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

Ok. I guess I should have been more detailed in my question; how do you define Wado-Ryu?

[Dobbersky]

This is an excellent discussion!!!

My interpretation of complete is a style that works with

Verbal confrontation

To

Stand-up striking

To

Stand-up grappling

To

Ground fighting

*But at each step an escape is there*

I suppose if we look at Karate AND Judo together, these style complement each other, the same as Karate and Jujitsu complimented each other to form Wado (Sojobo, please confirm with me that some Wado'ists are undecided whether Wado Ryu/Kai is Karate or Jujitsu)

Also if you take a Korean Striking art and mix it with Daito Ryu Jujitsu you get Hapkido!

So this has been done before but not questioned

Karate is like Western Boxing, Bushido Man will second me on this one, used to have strike and throws and grappling in it. I am sure Bush’ man would have some Photo's to upload showing Boxers doing throws etc.

It was the fact that certain training was NOT passed on from Instructor to Student, possibly because the student didn't stay long enough to learn the Bunkai to the kata they learned. Or certain Legal issues that prevented it being done like the banning of Japanese Martial Arts by the American Forces staying in Japan after the Second World War!

Training in a grappling style Like Judo to complement you Karate DOESN'T make it an MMA because in that case everything after Naha Te, Tomari Te and Shuri Te is MMA as they mixed style etc to make Okinawan karate.

If we look at Chin Na this is the grappling art of Gung Fu and it’s after at least 10 years of training that a practitioner gets to learn it, and this is all taken from the forms they been learning.

For a Gung Fu practitioner to practice Chin Na is NOT additional it just part of the style he is practicing, it doesn't make it MMA. Same as Karate. The only thing is we in this day and age have to find other sources to learn the stuff that the founders failed to pass on to us.

[bushido_man96]

Karate is like Western Boxing, Bushido Man will second me on this one, used to have strike and throws and grappling in it. I am sure Bush’ man would have some Photo's to upload showing Boxers doing throws etc.

Yes, Boxing before the Marquis of Queensbury rules era, was a more complete system, which included some throws. Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures to share.

[sensei8]

Imho,

Complete anything is an illusion because the completeness would be dependent on the skills/knowledge of any said practitioner/karateka.

IS THE METHODOLOGY/IDEOLOGY OF KARATE COMPLETE?

Then again, that completeness might then be dependent on the skills/knowledge of the founder of that said style of karate.

Possibly, the question above is what should be asked; one that might or might not ever be satisfactorily answered.

[sojobo]

Ok. I guess I should have been more detailed in my question; how do you define Wado-Ryu?

Budo.

Sojobo