Karate, a complete fighting system

[Ueshirokarate]

Dobbersky asked me about Judo and Karate katas. I have some judo experience, but it is all throws and ground work. So if any of you hold rank in both Okinawan Karate and Judo, please share your knowledge on this topic.

Here is an interesting article on how/why karate is a complete fighting art:

http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html

[Dobbersky]

I feel that "KARATE" IS a complete fighting style, the only thing is we HAVE to study other Arts, like Judo, to find what we already know within our chosen RYU. I have added some kata from Judo and other styles Old and new and a style Daido Juku Kudo which is a Kyokushin Judo Mix, the "latest" HYBRID "Fighting" Karate

GOSHIN JITSU KATA (JUDO)

KIME NO KATA (JUDO)

Sorry but I am using DAIDO JUKU KUDO to emphasis the use of Techniques

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyApeFXVhp0&list=FLhQonTwDRlWjHXpE9uPl7nQ&index=10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITufXJlVmCs&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLhQonTwDRlWjHXpE9uPl7nQ

Then we go to Okinawan Karate

NAIHANCHI KATA (SHORIN RYU)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AXOu1SKde4&list=FLhQonTwDRlWjHXpE9uPl7nQ&index=14

And ASHIHARA KARATE (JISSEN KATA)

This now moves on to a kata which is used in many karate styles which emphasises all of the above

BASSAI DAI (SHOTOKAN BASED)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYTDQNHVXk

[Ueshirokarate]

I agree we have to study other arts for a variety of reason. First of which that grappling has pretty much been removed in most karate systems and secondly it is proper strategy to study your opponents. I'll look at these links. Thanks for posting.

Matsubayashi Passai:

[Ueshirokarate]

Look at :30 in the Matsubayashi Passai.

:37 which is the same move as in our Pinan Godan

To me these are obvious throws.

Here is our Pinan Godan (:26):

The opening moves of our Pinan Shodan and Pinan Yondan could easily be changed into a Otoshi:

Judo Otoshi

Pinan Shodan

There are so many such examples. Speaking of Naihanchi Shodan, our version is very close to what you linked. However there is more leg action:

Sweep and throw after sweep and throw in that kata.

Also look at Fukyugata Ni. This kata is interesting in that it was composed by Chojin Miyagi. Slight differences between the styles, but nothing dramatic as in Wado vs. Shotokan:

There are throw applications on almost every move of this kata.

[sojobo]

I really struggle with this.

If you want to learn Jujutsu go to a Jujutsu club you will learn how to do it a lot better there.

This is the poblem I have with trying to reverse engineer stuff into Kata.

Kata doesn't work that way imo.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

I really struggle with this.

If you want to learn Jujutsu go to a Jujutsu club you will learn how to do it a lot better there.

This is the poblem I have with trying to reverse engineer stuff into Kata.

Kata doesn't work that way imo.

Sojobo

I don't know, my judo experience has really opened the door for me on so many of these moves. After all, the human body can only grab and throw another human body in so many ways. Your kata is either in sync with one of them or it isn't.

[brickshooter]

I agree with Sojo. But it's just not the instructions, it's the amount of practice one gets in randori that one can't get in kumite. And on top of that, one gets deeper instruction in throwing.

For example, in Judo, I'm not getting instruction on a soei nage throw, I'm getting instruction on 10 variations on that single throw. Plus instruction on left and right side. Plus more instruction on throwing a smaller or heavier uke.

I understand that in pure Judo, one can't break uke's balance with an uppercut. But overall, one gains a better understanding of manipulating balance.

It's the same in Judo. Outside of competition, some schools will teach a complete system that includes striking. But that level of striking will never reach the same level found in Karate.

[Ueshirokarate]

I agree with Sojo. But it's just not the instructions, it's the amount of practice one gets in randori that one can't get in kumite. And on top of that, one gets deeper instruction in throwing.

For example, in Judo, I'm not getting instruction on a soei nage throw, I'm getting instruction on 10 variations on that single throw. Plus instruction on left and right side. Plus more instruction on throwing a smaller or heavier uke.

I understand that in pure Judo, one can't break uke's balance with an uppercut. But overall, one gains a better understanding of manipulating balance.

It's the same in Judo. Outside of competition, some schools will teach a complete system that includes striking. But that level of striking will never reach the same level found in Karate.

I agree, unless you find a karate school that teaches throws and ground work at the same level as a Judo school, you will never really get it enough to use it. Randori type work is critical.

Personally I think traditional Karate schools and traditional Judo schools should team up. Doing so en masse would be a potent force against the Muay Thai/BBJ and MMA Mcdojos out there. Let's face it, Judo dropped what Karate gives and Karate for the most part, dropped what Judo offers. They really are the perfect match in my view.

[brickshooter]

I agree, unless you find a karate school that teaches throws and ground work at the same level as a Judo school, you will never really get it enough to use it. Randori type work is critical.

Personally I think traditional Karate schools and traditional Judo schools should team up. Doing so en masse would be a potent force against the Muay Thai/BBJ and MMA Mcdojos out there. Let's face it, Judo dropped what Karate gives and Karate for the most part, dropped what Judo offers. They really are the perfect match in my view.

The Daido Juku guys have done a pretty good job laying the foundation for you're describing. I've never trained with them, but their syllabus looks solid. Rather than attempt to teach you everything from day 1, they focus on karate for the first 2-3 years wiht a little Judo sprinkled in. Then as you move closer to dan grade, they pour in Judo instruction.

And they do a nice job of using each art to support the other. I've seen them use kneeing techniques as kuzushi for ashi wazas. And I've seen them throw uke then punch him senseless before he recovers rather than going to the ground.

Your idea of teaming up with a Judo school is a good one. The biggest issue I see is that you guys have to make a living. And the Judo instructor isn't goning to wait 2 years down the line for you to prep your students. And compelling the student to learn both styles at the same time is a bit much to chew on for a beginner.

[bushido_man96]

I really struggle with this.

If you want to learn Jujutsu go to a Jujutsu club you will learn how to do it a lot better there.

This is the poblem I have with trying to reverse engineer stuff into Kata.

Kata doesn't work that way imo.

Sojobo

I don't know, my judo experience has really opened the door for me on so many of these moves. After all, the human body can only grab and throw another human body in so many ways. Your kata is either in sync with one of them or it isn't.

With most of the styles present now, we can see that specialization has taken place over the years. Judo took to specializing in throws, and Karate tended to take a specialization in striking. I do think the two brought together would only be beneficial to a Martial Artist. And after a time of the curriculum being refined and worked on, it would eventually become its own style, and not two styles put together.