Why did karate lose its value?

[kansascityshuffle]

brickshooter: yes, it is competitive out there. And the fact that there are so many more involved in it now, we are going to see more mediocre level practitioners out there against all the really good ones. I'd consider myself rather mediocre, to be honest.

There are fads in martial arts, just like there is in fashion. Right now, the fad is in MMA and other "full contact combat sports."

I think we are beyond the point of calling MMA a fad now. Its well established, and it has been around for 20 plus years now, and really isn't fading. I wouldn't call it a fad anymore.

First UFC was in '93, granted, that was the first "big" MMA card here in the USA. The first UFC was in Denver, Colorado...this was no coincidence. The Sabaki Challenge is in Denver, CO, and the early UFC even had a former Sabaki Champion (Pat Smith) fight in them to make a statement.

I'd say in the USA, for the general masses, MMA has only been popular for the last 5-8 years. Sure, Vale Tudo, illegal all rules fights, etc. have been around much longer than 20 years but it wasn't globally "in style" like it is now. I still remember in the mid to late 90s loving it, and not many people were big into it, let alone training in any martial arts that had sparring with MMA rules.

With that being said, the fad right now in the USA is "UFC," "MMA," getting drunk and watching some UFCs on PPV thinking you're the next big thing. McDojos are even now on the MMA bandwagon offering "MMA classes."

So yes, I'd say the fad in martial arts right now is MMA. In the 90s, non-MMA schools still had quite a bit more interest. Just look at how many more Judo tournaments and full contact knockdown karate tuornaments that were still going on in the 90s that aren't today. The public is more interested in the fad we know as MMA, is why.

This is coming from somebody that's helped match make MMA cards and training MMA fighters. I'm now burnt out on MMA, and the wannabes that say they train MMA, and the whole attitude of it all..I'd rather go back to the early 90s when it wasn't that popular and not see it become the fad it is today.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, I see what you are getting at, but I still don't think its a "fad." That would indicate that it would have faded out by now, and it hasn't. I'd say that it has grown and evolved since then, and it still does. I'm sure there are some fighters out there who don't represent it well, and there are things that people don't like about MMA in general; i.e., that its not "traditional." But, I stand by my statement that I don't think its going anywhere.

[kansascityshuffle]

Ok, I see what you are getting at, but I still don't think its a "fad." That would indicate that it would have faded out by now, and it hasn't. I'd say that it has grown and evolved since then, and it still does. I'm sure there are some fighters out there who don't represent it well, and there are things that people don't like about MMA in general; i.e., that its not "traditional." But, I stand by my statement that I don't think its going anywhere.

I'll agree with you, there, I just used "fad" as meaning what's popular right now. In the 70s, you could say karate or kung fu was. I suppose in the 80s there was even a bit of a ninjitsu/ninja fad. I suppose if I said what's "popular" might be better?

MMA gaining the commercial popularity it has right now is a double edged sword. Sort of similar to how TKD became an Olympic sport, in some ways it's good, and in other ways it has been bad. I would argue the same is slowly happening with Judo, especially in the last 10 years with some of the rule changes. I know a life long martial artist that gave up formal Judo training (think he was a sandan or yondan in Judo) because of certain tournament rule changes.

With all of that being said, when something is more popular at the moment, majority of people will go to that. Like I've also stated before, for kickboxing, Muay Thai, and MMA...you don't typically have to pay to fight. You can often times have your travel, hotel, food all paid for, even. I never once paid to do a Muay Thai fight, and when I had fighters under me, they never did, neither...it was all paid for. In karate tournaments, you have to be a member of a big org, dojo, have sponsors, etc. to have this paid for. This makes karate a somewhat expensive hobby if you want to actually travel to compete. I'm very fortunate that my students have 2-3 Kyokushin tournaments a year within driving distance. Most around the world, typically have to fly if they want to compete.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with what you say about getting paid in Muay Thai/MMA as opposed to paying to fight in Karate and TKD tournies.

You mention the popularity of Karate compared to MMA now. I'd be interested in seeing a study of how many Karate schools are still out there in comparison to MMA gyms. Perhaps Karate hasn't lost too much popularity, in as much as it has just lost some attention?

[gatorgrasshopper]

This is my first post and I am relatively new to martial arts. I am a primarily a firearms/tactical guy but I wanted to enhance my basic self defense skills so I took up Karate and JJJ. That said, I want what I feel is valuable to me in the real world vs sport/competition for my investment in time and training. I am the noob that chose karate over the 2 MMA gyms in my area.

To me, karate is absolutely a valuable skill with modern value. I think an advanced student could absolutely use it for defense. That said, I am also taking JJJ as a competing/complimenting style as it differs in usage and results. I also toy around with MMA informally but that is more for cardio and basic cross training.

I tell you this as I am a "new" student and I did my homework prior to entry into MA. MMA is all over the media and cool to the masses, but in the real world it is impractical. I have no desire to roll around on the ground trying to lock/tapout some thug/mugger. Nor do I have a desire to be a wanna-be cage fighter. I want survival and or an ability to escape harm.

I love the strikes/kicks/kata in karate. They are of great value in my approach/belief of personal defense. That said, I would not hesitate to blend anything I have/know (karate, JJJ, MMA or raw violence) if needed.

[MasterPain]

This is my first post and I am relatively new to martial arts. I am a primarily a firearms/tactical guy but I wanted to enhance my basic self defense skills so I took up Karate and JJJ. That said, I want what I feel is valuable to me in the real world vs sport/competition for my investment in time and training. I am the noob that chose karate over the 2 MMA gyms in my area.

To me, karate is absolutely a valuable skill with modern value. I think an advanced student could absolutely use it for defense. That said, I am also taking JJJ as a competing/complimenting style as it differs in usage and results. I also toy around with MMA informally but that is more for cardio and basic cross training.

I tell you this as I am a "new" student and I did my homework prior to entry into MA. MMA is all over the media and cool to the masses, but in the real world it is impractical. I have no desire to roll around on the ground trying to lock/tapout some thug/mugger. Nor do I have a desire to be a wanna-be cage fighter. I want survival and or an ability to escape harm.

I love the strikes/kicks/kata in karate. They are of great value in my approach/belief of personal defense. That said, I would not hesitate to blend anything I have/know (karate, JJJ, MMA or raw violence) if needed.

Let's not dismiss MMA as "just a sport" just yet. Let's look at what the sport has shown over the years. First, that grappling is a range that many arts ignore, to their own peril. Any decent collegiate wrestler can take you to the ground, break your arm, choke you unconscious and KILL you if you don''t know how to defend takedowns or get back to your feet. Remember that a tapout means "please stop before you dstroy my limb or neck." So, for a self-defense minded person, to ignore grappling is to bury your head in the sand. Case in point: chuck Liddel is known as a knockout artist. He is also a great grappler. If not for his ability to use grappling skill to keep the fight standing, he'd be known as that guy that keeps getting taken down and tapped out.

There also tends to be an attitude from the MMA crowd that traditional martail arts are not combatively efficient. This stems from their lack of experience with weapons. Aikijutsu is not much use against a boxer, but it is awesome against someone swinging a ball bat at your skull.

What I'm getting at is that you have a good view on using what works, just don't let the style-specific sycophants ruin your view of any art. If you can stay objective, most arts have something to offer.

[brickshooter]

This is my first post and I am relatively new to martial arts. I am a primarily a firearms/tactical guy but I wanted to enhance my basic self defense skills so I took up Karate and JJJ. That said, I want what I feel is valuable to me in the real world vs sport/competition for my investment in time and training. I am the noob that chose karate over the 2 MMA gyms in my area.

To me, karate is absolutely a valuable skill with modern value. I think an advanced student could absolutely use it for defense. That said, I am also taking JJJ as a competing/complimenting style as it differs in usage and results. I also toy around with MMA informally but that is more for cardio and basic cross training.

I tell you this as I am a "new" student and I did my homework prior to entry into MA. MMA is all over the media and cool to the masses, but in the real world it is impractical. I have no desire to roll around on the ground trying to lock/tapout some thug/mugger. Nor do I have a desire to be a wanna-be cage fighter. I want survival and or an ability to escape harm.

I love the strikes/kicks/kata in karate. They are of great value in my approach/belief of personal defense. That said, I would not hesitate to blend anything I have/know (karate, JJJ, MMA or raw violence) if needed.

Let's not dismiss MMA as "just a sport" just yet. Let's look at what the sport has shown over the years. First, that grappling is a range that many arts ignore, to their own peril. Any decent collegiate wrestler can take you to the ground, break your arm, choke you unconscious and KILL you if you don''t know how to defend takedowns or get back to your feet. Remember that a tapout means "please stop before you dstroy my limb or neck." So, for a self-defense minded person, to ignore grappling is to bury your head in the sand. Case in point: chuck Liddel is known as a knockout artist. He is also a great grappler. If not for his ability to use grappling skill to keep the fight standing, he'd be known as that guy that keeps getting taken down and tapped out.

There also tends to be an attitude from the MMA crowd that traditional martail arts are not combatively efficient. This stems from their lack of experience with weapons. Aikijutsu is not much use against a boxer, but it is awesome against someone swinging a ball bat at your skull.

What I'm getting at is that you have a good view on using what works, just don't let the style-specific sycophants ruin your view of any art. If you can stay objective, most arts have something to offer.

Are you sure about this? Seems to me that collegiant wrestling don't teach these techniques. This is the realm of the Judo/BJJ folks. I only wrestled high school.

[MasterPain]

They don't teach those techniques, but they teach how to put you in a position to do so. After that, all you need to know is how to do a keylock, which is very simple.

[gatorgrasshopper]

This is my first post and I am relatively new to martial arts. I am a primarily a firearms/tactical guy but I wanted to enhance my basic self defense skills so I took up Karate and JJJ. That said, I want what I feel is valuable to me in the real world vs sport/competition for my investment in time and training. I am the noob that chose karate over the 2 MMA gyms in my area.

To me, karate is absolutely a valuable skill with modern value. I think an advanced student could absolutely use it for defense. That said, I am also taking JJJ as a competing/complimenting style as it differs in usage and results. I also toy around with MMA informally but that is more for cardio and basic cross training.

I tell you this as I am a "new" student and I did my homework prior to entry into MA. MMA is all over the media and cool to the masses, but in the real world it is impractical. I have no desire to roll around on the ground trying to lock/tapout some thug/mugger. Nor do I have a desire to be a wanna-be cage fighter. I want survival and or an ability to escape harm.

I love the strikes/kicks/kata in karate. They are of great value in my approach/belief of personal defense. That said, I would not hesitate to blend anything I have/know (karate, JJJ, MMA or raw violence) if needed.

Let's not dismiss MMA as "just a sport" just yet. Let's look at what the sport has shown over the years. First, that grappling is a range that many arts ignore, to their own peril. Any decent collegiate wrestler can take you to the ground, break your arm, choke you unconscious and KILL you if you don''t know how to defend takedowns or get back to your feet. Remember that a tapout means "please stop before you dstroy my limb or neck." So, for a self-defense minded person, to ignore grappling is to bury your head in the sand. Case in point: chuck Liddel is known as a knockout artist. He is also a great grappler. If not for his ability to use grappling skill to keep the fight standing, he'd be known as that guy that keeps getting taken down and tapped out.

There also tends to be an attitude from the MMA crowd that traditional martail arts are not combatively efficient. This stems from their lack of experience with weapons. Aikijutsu is not much use against a boxer, but it is awesome against someone swinging a ball bat at your skull.

What I'm getting at is that you have a good view on using what works, just don't let the style-specific sycophants ruin your view of any art. If you can stay objective, most arts have something to offer.

Yeah, I get it MP, I wrestled, etc and loosely study MMA striking/kicking and I think they area all valuable. I also study JJJ and....I also CCW

The thread is about the modern relevance of karate.

My vote is that is definitely relevant...just currently overshadowed by MMA/UFC and the tapout culture. I think BJJ, etc is cool personally but I also think Karate can be excellent IMHO if a student is practiced and seasoned. Striking/kicking/blocking...all valuable.

I personally have no desire to go toe to toe with a group of momo thug's. If I believe my life is truly endangered, I want to create distance, secure cover and concealment and use alternate means of defense if needed. Karate is one authentic means for me to do that. My 2 cents for this thread.

[judobrah]

-bad schools(macdojo) -lack of sparring -lack of speed on drills,useless moves -bad teachers -marketing they turned a legit system more self defense orientaded to a 'mcdojo style of karate`