Why did karate lose its value?

[sojobo]

Or...

Were you thinking more along the line of how to defend yourself against someone who attacks you with fresh fruit... type thing?

Sojobo

[Cayuga Karate]

Sojobo wrote:

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the origins of [Naihanchi] along with the functionality of it.

Regarding the functionality, I am interested in presenting information on my view of this and all kata in the format I explained above. My views are complex, and to fully present them will require a fair amount of historical references. I only want to engage in this presentation, which could require several hours of my typing, on the basis of my proposal above. I want to contrast my approach to others, and for that I need others to agree to participate in my "travel back in time" scenario.

Regarding the origins, our starting point is the historical record. We know from the writings of Funakoshi, Nagamine, Motobu, Miyagi and others, that up until the early 1900s, karate was taught in the utmost secrecy. It is my view that this secrecy is a critical barrier to our being able fully understand the evolution and development of fighting arts in Okinawa over a 500 year period. To a very real extent, everything we have is speculation, and the authors made that clear. I think it worthwhile to review some of the key sources that describe the cult of secrecy that surrounded the transmission of these Chinese fighting arts for hundreds of years.

Eiichi Miyazato relates a story from Miyagi about Kanryo Higaonna’s travel to China in the 1860s to learn “ti”. [Emphasis will be added to phrases in each quotation.]

Kanryo Higaonna Sensei, very strong even as a young boy, took an interest in Karate at a very early age. He himself trained in “ti”, but, by chance one day, he stumbled upon Chinese Kenpo. The splendid feats that he witnessed fascinated him so much that he went around [to] all the prominent houses in Okinawa and asked them to teach him. Unfortunately for him, the common practice of the time was to keep the art veiled in secrecy and the more famous the house was, the more pride they took in this secrecy. Considering the fact that those within the family who practiced the art didn’t share their knowledge even with their own family, an outsider receiving instruction was virtually unheard of. Unable to give up on his quest, Kanryo Higaonna Sensei decided that he would travel to China.

In Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters, Shoshin Nagamine wrote:

During Matsumura’s generation, the practice of the combative disciplines, in both Fuzhou and Okinawa, took place under an iron-clad rule of secrecy.

In the The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Nagamine further discussed the secrecy in which karate was practiced.

The forbidden art was passed down from father to son among the samurai class in Okinawa. Training went on in secret; devotees practiced in hidden and remote places, meeting between midnight and dawn for fear of informers. Having to study secretly and at great risk did not discourage those of martial and enterprising spirit; rather it inspired them to greater efforts.

Because of the secrecy in which te had to be practiced, there exists no evidence to indicate an clear-cut classifications of the various styles and types of karate during its formative years in the 18th century.

During the 19th century, Shuri-te and Naha-te developed further and became unique forms of Okinawan karate. The study of karate was still confined to the samurai class and carried on in the strictest of secrecy.

Through oral tradition and hand-to-hand training, the secret performances of the Chinese masters in the art of self-defense came to be known and their kata integrated with te.

Regarding the origins of kata, such as Naihanchi, we have Nagamine above citing Chinese sources for kata. Motobu's gives us more specifics.

In his text, Okinawa Kenpo, he writes:

As to the origins of Karate, there are many theories, however I am inclined to believe that this art was taught by Chinese men since there were many contacts made between Ryu Kyu and China since ancient days. There have been numerous styles (kata) in Karate. Some have already been forgotten and others are still being used and developed into some other styles. Changes in the different styles are difficult to trace. Throughout the history of Karate the demands for changes by society and the lifestyles of the people and even geographic differences caused each school to choose its own course to become popular or unpopular. Among those styles or katas which have been used in Ryu Kyu from ancient days are:

Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan, Seiunchin, Ippakkku-Re-Hachi, Naihanchi, (Ichidan, Nidan, Sandan), Passai, Chinto, Chinte, (bamboo-yari spear style), Wanshu, Rohai and Kusanku.

And especially the three styles Nai-hanchi, Passai (great and small), and Kusanku which are widely known to many islanders. As I have mentioned, Ryu Kyu Kempo-Karate originally came from China. Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan and Seiunchin have been used there for many centuries. However, the Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto, [and] Rohai styles are not left in China today and remain only in Okinawa as active Martial Arts. Wanshu and Rohai were used only in Tomari until [the] geographic reorganization in 1871 was made as a part of the Meiji Restoration. No one in Naha or Shuri learned those two styles until then, but later they were introduced to those main cities in Okinawa. As to the Pinan, the modern-time warrior Mr. Itosu originated this style to use a teaching material for his students.

Miyagi, in 1934, wrote the following on the origins of the kata:

When we consider how karate was introduced to Ryukyu (= Okinawa), we have various opinions without any historical evidence. We have not yet come to a correct conclusion on this matter. There are three main opinions, namely “Thirty-six Chinese Immigrants”, “Oshima Notes” and “Importation in Keicho Period”. Simple explanation of each opinion are as follows.

(1) Thirty-six Chinese Immigrants

In 1392 (Ming dynasty in China), thirty-six Chinese immigrants came to Ryukyu from Fujian province. At that time karate was introduced to Ryukyu by Chinese immigrants from Fujian province.

(2) Oshima Notes

In 1762, the merchant ship of the Ryukyu Kingdom was caught in a heavy storm on the way to Satsuma (= Kagoshima prefecture now), and cast ashore on the coast of Oshima, Tosa (= Kochi prefecture now). Shiohira Pechin, a high rank official of the ship, was an intelligent person. He was helped by Choki Tobe, an intellectual who lived in Oshima. Tobe wrote down Shiohira’s interesting stories about the Ryukyu Kingdom. His notes was called “Oshima Notes”. The 3rd volume of “Oshima Notes” says “Koshankun, a kungfu warrior, came from China to Ryukyu (= Okinawa) bringing his disciples with him.” According to the Notes, at that time people called the martial arts “Kumiaijutsu” instead of karate. This notes is [sic] the most reliable literature on karate.

(3) Importation in Keicho Period

In 1609 (14th year of Keicho period), the Shimazu clan of Satsuma (= Kagoshima prefecture now) invaded the Ryukyu Kingdom, and they prohibited possessing weapons by people of Ryukyu. Some believe that karate was created spontaneously due to the cruel oppression by Satsuma. The others insist that karate was not a domestic creation but what was imported from China. I think it is reasonable to consider that karate was a fusion of a martial arts from China and “Te” a native martial arts which had already existed, so karate was developed remarkably and even today it is still improved rationally and developed. We have a few different opinions on origin of karate, but they are popular misconceptions and not worth listening. As mentioned above, so far we do not have any definite and convincing opinion yet. Anyway, karate has been developed, modified and improved for so many years.

Funakoshi gives us just a bit more insight into the origins of karate in Karate-Do Kyohan.

There is no doubt that the many experts who traveled between Okinawa and China contributed heavily to the bringing of karate to its present level. For example it has come down by word of mouth that about 200 years ago, a certain Sakugawa of Akata, in Shuri, traveled to China and then returned to Okinawa after mastering karate to become known as Karate Sakugawa. Again, according to Shiodaira of Shuri, one hundred and fifty years ago (as noted in the Oshima Note, by Tobe of Tosa, Japan), a Chinese expert, by name of Ku Shanku, arrived in Okinawa with a few of his students and introduced a type of kempo. Okinawan experts such as Sakiyama, Gushi, and Tomoyori, of Naha, studied for some time with the Chinese military attache, Ason; Matsumuma of Shuri, Maesato and Kogusuku of Kume, with the military attaché, Iwah; and Shimabuku of Uemonden, and Higa, Senaha, Gushi, Nagahama, Aragaki, Higjuanna and Kuwae, all of Kunenboya, with the military attaché, Waishinzan. It is said that Gusukuma, Kanagusuku, Matsumura, Oyatomari, Yamada, Nakazato, Yamazato, and Toguchi, all of Tomari, was a Southern Chinese who drifted ashore at Okinawa.

Later in the text, Funakoshi provides a further reference to Kusanku.

The name of [Kwanku] was derived originally from the name of the military attache, Ku Shanku, who introduced it.

I am not sure we will ever have much more than this on the origin of kata. Kata were taught in secret by Chinese in Okinawa, and it appears that these Chinese may have been to some extent, in Okinawa in official military capacities. Motobu mentions Naihanchi as being of Chinese origin.

That's all I can claim regarding the origins of Naihanchi. Regarding the use of Naihanchi, this kind of historical context helps guide my views on the use of Naihanchi as well as all the old Chinese kata passed down in Okinawa.

But that is for another post. As I said, my views are based on the historical record of which this is a small piece.

-Cayuga Karate

[mizu]

I don't think karate has fundamentally lost its value.

There are however two factors that are influencing how karate is perceived;

Firstly, commercialisation has especially in the west watered down what is being taught, making it at the same time more accessible, and less effective.

Secondly, the "Gracie effect" - the huge uplift in popularity of MMA and bjj inparticular means that karate is no longer the only show in town. In fact it's often seen as last season's show.

My own view, from my own experience, is that where taught with the correct spirit and technical competence there is still a huge amount of value in karate. I certainly can't imagine my life without it.

[Jorvik]

Understanding the origins of an art can be very difficult, even a kata, and the problem is that a kata is like a notebook, even when done well it is not like fighting. I study Chinese boxing now, Wing chun, and there are various styles in wing Chun , With kata done with the same moves appearing in different places within the kata with things added or things taken away, but essentially the art remains what it is and there are soft ways of doing things and hard ways of doing things.

Also another thing to consider is culture, when you see very heavily Chinese influenced karate styles such as Uechi and Goju.how much of what they do is traditional Chinese or traditional Okinawan. The idea of Kihon,kata and kumite is a very good one..in my book Kihon comes first then kumite..and then kata, always start with the basics and outside your comfort zone.but I think it is the Okinawans more than the chinese who developed this idea.but there are many meetings of minds........usually in old okinawa only a couple of Kata would be taught or trained or practiced and this was the way in China also..however later this gave way to other thoughts and many kata where practiced.lots to consider and talk about..my personal practise involves all three aspects and other stuff hoju undo, meditation.hard to fit it all in.but I try

[bushido_man96]

Firstly, commercialisation has especially in the west watered down what is being taught, making it at the same time more accessible, and less effective.

I have to throw in my 2 cents here. This is an especially irksome issue for me.

It appears that eveyone likes to "point west" when it comes to the watering down of styles. I don't think this is the case. Many westerners that brought an MA back, or start their own schools, are doing so under the premises taught to them by their eastern counterparts. They use ideas given to them by their eastern counterparts. If one wants to begin pointing to the watering down of arts like Karate, then I would have to say it has just as much to do with ideas from the east as it does from the west.

It is true that western business models are a bit differnet than those in the east. You can't expect too many students to enroll in a class where they can expect to be beaten on for over an hour and a half per class, three nights per week. Not good business. Sure, you will probably end up with some good MAists there, physically, but likely not too many. Things have changed since the 50s and 60s, but overall, I think training has advanced and gotten better since that time. Likewise, the more people who get into something, get exposed to it, and go on to do their own thing with, you end up with some that aren't focusing on the same things the others are; it is possible to get less than stellar quality of instruction. And this is sad. But, all too often, the bad ones draw our focus, and then we assume there is more bad than good out there, when its just the bad that sticks out more.

[kansascityshuffle]

There are fads in martial arts, just like there is in fashion. Right now, the fad is in MMA and other "full contact combat sports."

I like it all, I've trained and taught at MMA/BJJ schools, competed in Muay Thai, taught Muay Thai, have trained in shito ryu/goju ryu, Kyokushin, etc.

So going back to what I said in the beginning, when something is more popular, the majority of the clay to mold a nice vase with goes to what's popular!

Also take this into consideration. To compete in karate, you need to pay your own way to travel, tournament fees, etc. unless you're in a huge dojo that has the money to pay your way and/or have sponsors. Most people do not start out having their way paid for to compete in karate tournaments. I bring this up, because if you fight Muay Thai, MMA, etc. you typically (I never did) pay to compete. You compete on a fight card, the promoter is trying to make money, and you can even have your travel, hotel, food, etc. all paid for, and maybe thrown a few bucks. When I used to fight in Muay Thai, I was paid a little bit, everything was paid for, hotel, food, etc. I was in my late teens and early 20s, and thought this was a nice break from having to pay to fight in karate tournaments! So, somebody could go to an MMA gym, train for a year or two, and fight on a fight card that they don't have to pay to fight on.....sounds like a better and easier deal on the wallet, right?

[Groinstrike]

There are fads in martial arts, just like there is in fashion. Right now, the fad is in MMA and other "full contact combat sports."

I like it all, I've trained and taught at MMA/BJJ schools, competed in Muay Thai, taught Muay Thai, have trained in shito ryu/goju ryu, Kyokushin, etc.

So going back to what I said in the beginning, when something is more popular, the majority of the clay to mold a nice vase with goes to what's popular!

Also take this into consideration. To compete in karate, you need to pay your own way to travel, tournament fees, etc. unless you're in a huge dojo that has the money to pay your way and/or have sponsors. Most people do not start out having their way paid for to compete in karate tournaments. I bring this up, because if you fight Muay Thai, MMA, etc. you typically (I never did) pay to compete. You compete on a fight card, the promoter is trying to make money, and you can even have your travel, hotel, food, etc. all paid for, and maybe thrown a few bucks. When I used to fight in Muay Thai, I was paid a little bit, everything was paid for, hotel, food, etc. I was in my late teens and early 20s, and thought this was a nice break from having to pay to fight in karate tournaments! So, somebody could go to an MMA gym, train for a year or two, and fight on a fight card that they don't have to pay to fight on.....sounds like a better and easier deal on the wallet, right?

smart post!,

Also the sheer media saturation of MMA. I see 8th graders walking around who can't see there feet who are wearing tapout or mma elite t-shirts. It is absolutely everywhere.

[sperki]

Most of this thread seems to focus on 2 aspects of why people take up karate, or any MA for that matter, in the first place. First, from the customers standpoint, to learn to fight. Great, that's a legit reason to start a martial art. Probably not the greatest reason to stick with it though. Two, from the instructors perspective, to make money. That's a great reason to teach. You'll never get rich, but it can be rewarding and if it puts a few extra bones in the bank, even better. Why isn't karate obsolete? All of the other reasons people are there: self-discipline, fitness, stress relief, to make friends, etc.

If the only goal is to fight, I might argue martial arts are the wrong venue. Join the Marine Corps - they'll teach you functional fighting. Or to test yourself take a stroll around parts of Detroit or St. Louis with a fancy watch showing and a camera dangling around your neck. This family vacation can teach you how effective your style is in the real world

[brickshooter]

Firstly, commercialisation has especially in the west watered down what is being taught, making it at the same time more accessible, and less effective.

I have to throw in my 2 cents here. This is an especially irksome issue for me.

It appears that eveyone likes to "point west" when it comes to the watering down of styles. I don't think this is the case. Many westerners that brought an MA back, or start their own schools, are doing so under the premises taught to them by their eastern counterparts. They use ideas given to them by their eastern counterparts. If one wants to begin pointing to the watering down of arts like Karate, then I would have to say it has just as much to do with ideas from the east as it does from the west.

It is true that western business models are a bit differnet than those in the east. You can't expect too many students to enroll in a class where they can expect to be beaten on for over an hour and a half per class, three nights per week. Not good business. Sure, you will probably end up with some good MAists there, physically, but likely not too many. Things have changed since the 50s and 60s, but overall, I think training has advanced and gotten better since that time. Likewise, the more people who get into something, get exposed to it, and go on to do their own thing with, you end up with some that aren't focusing on the same things the others are; it is possible to get less than stellar quality of instruction. And this is sad. But, all too often, the bad ones draw our focus, and then we assume there is more bad than good out there, when its just the bad that sticks out more.

Either the bad sticks out more. Or it's exploited by competitor martial arts. Let's face it, it is a highly competitive business environment out there.

[bushido_man96]

brickshooter: yes, it is competitive out there. And the fact that there are so many more involved in it now, we are going to see more mediocre level practitioners out there against all the really good ones. I'd consider myself rather mediocre, to be honest.

There are fads in martial arts, just like there is in fashion. Right now, the fad is in MMA and other "full contact combat sports."

I think we are beyond the point of calling MMA a fad now. Its well established, and it has been around for 20 plus years now, and really isn't fading. I wouldn't call it a fad anymore.