Why did karate lose its value?

[bushido_man96]

Cayuga Karate: You've poured a lot of information into your post, especially in the differences between kata training and effective fighting. With that in mind, I quote you below:

I believe that the study of kata, and karate in general provide all sorts of benefits, and that improved self-defense is one of them. But I recognize that much of kata does not map directly to effective fighting. Students of karate come up with all sorts of interesting applications for kata, but many who view them wonder to what extent they prepare one to adequately defend against a large opponent, shuffling and, launching fast powerful combinations against your head. There are some movements in kata that do address this challenge, but it is my experience that much of the movements we find in kata do not.

With this in mind, then does it ever make you wonder why to continue with kata when it has so little in common with effective fighting? Would you feel the time spend on kata could be better served in working on more effective fighting combination work, reaction training, etc?

It seems to me that more and more of the lay person sees these things on their own. They watch a match on TV of the last MMA event, and then maybe see the local Karate school students doing their forms practice through the window walking down main street. They see the difference, and make their decision that way.

Just some thoughts. Thanks for your post.

[Jorvik]

I'm a newb here, but I will say that karate and other MA's have suffered because they do not explain themselves enough to a modern mind. Young people now view things with fresh eyes, I see this with my sons, they laugh at forms , but do not laugh at boxing or weight lifting ....I can see the value of such things but they can't.but then again I don't see martial arts as fighting solely I think there is more than that, and equally I don't see that MMA etc are really about fighting either, although the youngsters think they are.it's a difficut situation to resolve.but if you are like me then you' ll carry on as you have before because you may nevere get to your destination but the journey is such fun

[Cayuga Karate]

bushido_man96 wrote:

does it ever make you wonder why to continue with kata when it has so little in common with effective fighting? Would you feel the time spend on kata could be better served in working on more effective fighting combination work, reaction training, etc?

If I chose to answer that fully, it would be a long and complicated response, and it would diverge from the topic of this thread. However, my view of the Chinese kata taught to Okinawans can be boiled down to the following paradox.

I believe it is a pretty much a waste of time to try to map effective empty hand fighting sequences onto much of what we find in these old Chinese kata. I also believe that these Chinese kata, in their day, provided some of the most effective fighting ever developed and the incessant practice of these kata was a remarkably effective training tool to ensure one could most successfully defend against an attack.

If that sounds like a riddle, it is. If you would like me to further explain, that would require another thread.

To answer your question, I believe that most people wanting to learn empty hand self-defense would be well served by training in MMA, especially striking arts. Cardio kickboxing is not a bad training model. I do believe that there are effective body mechanics in kata that can be mined, and when grafted to stand-up striking arts can make them more effective.

I also believe that training in kata can yield some remarkably good self-defense skills that could serve one well throughout one's life. I'm 53. I am far more concerned that at 75 I could successfully thwart an attack on my grandchildren, than on learning how to deal with an angry man in a bar taking a swing at me.

If you were to view the empty hand self defense that comes from MMA as effective when you are young, and the self-defense that comes from kata for when you are old, it puts the long-term practice of kata into a quite different perspective.

But that is for another post. It's a complicated subject.

[Jorvik]

Yes it is a complex subject, very complex..real world violence and it's resolution can be dealt with by kata or forms.but then again some forms aren't about that, they are about getting more pupils.I've thought about this for many years.....and I've trained for over 40 of them, a lot of what is true cannot be simply expressed on a forum, folks have different ideas ,agendas and experiences......but at the end of the day we are resonsible for our selves and we can protect our loved ones and ourselves and we can do this by a true understanding

[sojobo]

But that is for another post. It's a complicated subject.

As a long time student of Wado-ryu, your words resonate with me.

Wado-ryu "does not have bunkai" but instead we have the paired kata handed down from our Koryu Bujutsu ancestry - from which we can can begin to "understand" the process behind the omote of the solo kata – or at least that’s the theory.

I for one would be interested in that other post.

sojobo

[sojobo]

BTW, What ryu-ha do you practice/teach?

If my memory serves me correctly "Cayuga" is a native American Indian tribe - It is not a Japanese school anyway.

Sojobo

[Cayuga Karate]

Sojobo wrote:

If my memory serves me correctly "Cayuga" is a native American Indian tribe - It is not a Japanese school anyway.

Good memory. In my backyard is a creek that was called Warrior's creek by the Cayuga. A path along it went down South towards Owego.

I live in Ithaca, NY which is at the southern tip of Cayuga Lake.

As karate developed over hundreds of years in Okinawa, certain regional differences emerged. The resulting systems were known by the regions in which they were practiced. So came the names Shuri-te, Naha-te, Tomari-te, named after two port cities and the capital, only 10 miles from the outskirts of Naha.

So I call my art Cayuga Karate, because that is the region in which I teach it.

In order to start another thread, I would need participation from other posters. I will describe a scenario and have posters add detailed responses.

Send yourself back in time 160 years to 1850 to the Ryukyu Kingdom. There are perhaps 150,000 members of your kingdom scattered across the many islands in the archipelago, though most reside on the largest island, Okinawa. You are part of a group of several thousand who would be considered members of the Shizoku which can be roughly translated as ruling class or aristocracy. As a member of the Shizoku, you might have a hereditary relationship to the royal family, or work for the royal family government, or be a member of the mercantile class involved in maritime trade with China, Korea and Japan.

Imagine you are 50 years old. You began learning tote (Chinese hand) from your father when you were a teenager and he taught it to you as he learned it from his father. Much of your training was in a few Chinese kata. There was extensive conditioning, and makiwara striking. You used a wooden staff, up to a foot longer than you, to carry parcels and pails to transport all manner of things including your water for drinking, cooking and bathing. You knew how to propel the rokushaku bo for fighting.

You look back over your 35 years of training. You have practiced a few kata for thousands of hours, practicing each scores of thousands of times. In your mind you consider how this training has prepared you to defend against an attack. Should such a scenario arise, you are thoroughly trained to counter that attack fully and effectively.

With that thought in your head, a reflection of 35 years of daily rigorous training, mostly in the incessant repetition of kata, you consider the attacks you are ready to respond to.

That's the question I have for the karate community, here on this forum, and those elsewhere.

Today, many karateka practice essentially the same kata as this fictional person dead for over a century. These movements you share with him are considered ancient, long predating both of you.

Transport yourself, back in time, knowing that the kata you might have practiced a few hundred times to date, you would have practiced scores of thousands. Pick 3 or 4 kata from the repertoire of kata you have learned so far. Think about those kata and how they prepared you against certain attacks, then describe those attacks, in detail. And briefly describe the response. (For example you could say "I block the attack, and then strike x (target). or grab y (target) and strike x (target). etc.

If I get a few posters willing to take the time to participate in this process and fully describe the attack scenario, then I can describe the attacks I see. Remember, this is all imaginary. All you need to do is visualize what those attacks are that you believe your kata training has effectively trained to respond to.

I'm not asking anyone to do this immediately, since I will be creating a new thread. But if you want to do so over the next couple of weeks, I could then try this new thread. However, I do need this information. I will propose an alternative perspective. But I need to make my alternative to something concrete, and that is what I am asking help on.

I can make a far more compelling case, if I can make it against proposed alternatives.

Let me also state that this will be a very long post. I will document why I think what I do quite thoroughly, and it will include reference a number of historical documents that are on-line and readily available, but many readers may have yet to read.

I would like to engage the readers of this forum in a provocative discussion in which historical documents will be presented that supports the following hypothesis:

It is worthwhile effort to evaluate whether Chinese kata could have been designed for purposes fundamentally different than what has been taught over the past 100 years since these kata emerged from their long history of secrecy.

Cayuga Karate

[brickshooter]

I'm a newb here, but I will say that karate and other MA's have suffered because they do not explain themselves enough to a modern mind. Young people now view things with fresh eyes, I see this with my sons, they laugh at forms , but do not laugh at boxing or weight lifting ....I can see the value of such things but they can't.but then again I don't see martial arts as fighting solely I think there is more than that, and equally I don't see that MMA etc are really about fighting either, although the youngsters think they are.it's a difficut situation to resolve.but if you are like me then you' ll carry on as you have before because you may nevere get to your destination but the journey is such fun

This is a good post.

I notice that many instructors fail to teach application. Instead they teach only techniques. For example, they teach the low stances. But they don't tell students when to use them. Consequently, students believe that they're supposed to be in a low stance all of the time.

Incorrect. The low stance is used when on unstable grounds, which may include grass, dirt, wet floor, sand or ice which is very common in the real world. But if you're on even ground like the ring, then you use a high stance to be mobile. You only use a low stance when striking to maximize power, then prop back up to a high stance to regain that mobility. The low stance is also used when fighting in a clinch or to defend a throw.

Well... what I just posted isn't commonly taught. Studends get tons of instructions on where to point the toes, where to point the knees, sliding the feet. And zero instruction on actual application.

In the East, students will wait patiently because they're interested in perfection (hint, it's why they called it an "Art"). Here in the West, students are more interested in application rather than perfection. We want self-defense. But all we get is "Art."

[todome]

Karate isn't a popularity contest.

[sojobo]

Hi Cayuga Karate,

Can we suggest a common Kata for example?

Why don't we start with Naihanchi?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the origins of this kata along with the functionality of it.

From a Wado perspective, I am very clear on why we train it, as it underpins most of our karate and helps us understand where Otsuka sensei came from - particularly when you study it in conjunction with our paired kata (Kihon Gumite etc).

This, to me anyway, probably conflicts with the contemporary approach of most "modern" styles today.

In essence we use it to train the body - rather than to extract or experiment with the martial / sd techniques that “could” be in it.

That’s the job for the likes of Mr Abernethy's etc.

How's that for starters?

Sojobo