Why did karate lose its value?

[evergrey]

I agree with a lot of the points that have been made in this thread, and will add a style-specific thought of my own, as I do Kyokushin, like the OP does. (OSU!)

What would Mas Oyama do, if he were, say, 33 today and Kyokushin was one big organization?

I think that he would take himself and his best students and go up against some big MMA guys. He would gauge his style against what is popular today, and then adjust accordingly. He would incorporate the aspects of MMA he found to be effective. He would use what works. It seems to me that he was quite unafraid of testing his style against others, or changing his style, or learning new things and adjusting to the times.

I think that it is a mistake to become like flies trapped in amber. It's a mistake to water down Kyokushin, and it's a mistake to change it completely, but I was always taught that one of the fundamentals of Kyokushin was "use what works."

If something worked 20 years ago but really doesn't work today because the science of fighting has advanced or changed, then we have to grow and change with the times and learn to counter these new things. We have to learn to adapt to fighting as it is today.

That is how it is in the dojo I train at. We have a very strong lineage going directly to Mas Oyama. One of the instructors spent a good chunk of time training under Sosai himself, even. Most of what we do is traditional Kyokushin, HOWEVER, we do things that some other schools might not agree with. Sweeps, grabs, throws, armbars, knees, stuff like that. There are a fair number of takedowns in our Kumite.

And after class, there's a lot of grappling. Many of our more advanced fighters cross-train in something like BJJ, because we understand that, like any style, there are holes in our training, and that to be a complete martial artist able to go up against other styles effectively, we need to understand grappling. We do our best to not go to the ground in normal Kumite, BUT...

It's like riding horses. I was talking to another horseperson once about learning emergency dismounts and learning how to fall a lot more safely. I asked her if she'd learned any of that, and she said, "Oh noooooo! I just learn to NEVER COME OFF THE HORSE!"

Here's the thing... if you ride a motorcycle, you're going to drop your bike at some point. If you ride horses, you're going to come off the horse sometime. If you fight outside of your dojo, and especially outside of your style when you're only a striking style, eventually, at some point, it's going to go to the ground. Maybe not 91% of the fights like some people claim, but at some point it's probably going to happen. What do you do then? Do you know what to do?

If we are too inflexible, we will eventually become relics.

That's part of why my dojo also has open sparring days, where all styles are welcome, and there tends to be as much rolling as there is stand-up. Maybe even more rolling...

We have to keep up with the times, we have to not compromise so much just to make money, and one other thing-

We have to keep up with the way people COMMUNICATE.

I've run into this attitude that karate should be secretive! Word of mouth only!

Well guess what? People don't make choices that way any more. Word of mouth? That's the INTERNET now. Secrets? Okay, I mean I can understand having some, but we aren't in feudal Japan any more.

People want to know what they're getting into. They rely on the internet to learn about the reputation of a school. They really do. They go on yelp. They read BLOGS. They want to feel a connection BEFORE they walk in the door.

Not everybody can have or wants a TV show... but if we want to connect to the public, gain a reputation, keep our styles ALIVE, I think we need to be prepared to tell a story. We need to be willing to draw people in, to show them some of our world. Not for our own glory and not as a stroking of the ego, but as a means of communication that is effective in the modern world. With no students, there are no teachers.

This is an era where being too secretive is met with suspicion. It is not looked upon with some sense of mystical reverence. Instead of thinking, "this is a great honor to be included in this elite society that gains special knowledge," people will say "what do they have to hide? Are they afraid they will look silly? That they won't measure up to the UFC and MMA? That they'll be exposed as frauds?"

It's like... restaurants in China.

Here in the states, a brightly lit restaurant is usually seen as a cheap place. Dimly lit places are full of mood lighting, and seen as classy. That's the past.

In China, a dimly lit place is trying to hide poor quality food and cockroaches. A brightly lit place is clean with good food, and seen as a good, classy restaurant. They have nothing to hide, and are full of flash and flair. That's the present of martial arts in the eyes of the public.

So if you want to bring it back, adapt, innovate, overcome, grow. Hold fast to your standards of training... and tell them a story.

[Dobbersky]

I agree with a lot of the points that have been made in this thread, and will add a style-specific thought of my own, as I do Kyokushin, like the OP does. (OSU!)

What would Mas Oyama do, if he were, say, 33 today and Kyokushin was one big organization?

I think that he would take himself and his best students and go up against some big MMA guys. He would gauge his style against what is popular today, and then adjust accordingly. He would incorporate the aspects of MMA he found to be effective. He would use what works. It seems to me that he was quite unafraid of testing his style against others, or changing his style, or learning new things and adjusting to the times.

I think that it is a mistake to become like flies trapped in amber. It's a mistake to water down Kyokushin, and it's a mistake to change it completely, but I was always taught that one of the fundamentals of Kyokushin was "use what works."

If something worked 20 years ago but really doesn't work today because the science of fighting has advanced or changed, then we have to grow and change with the times and learn to counter these new things. We have to learn to adapt to fighting as it is today.

That is how it is in the dojo I train at. We have a very strong lineage going directly to Mas Oyama. One of the instructors spent a good chunk of time training under Sosai himself, even. Most of what we do is traditional Kyokushin, HOWEVER, we do things that some other schools might not agree with. Sweeps, grabs, throws, armbars, knees, stuff like that. There are a fair number of takedowns in our Kumite.

And after class, there's a lot of grappling. Many of our more advanced fighters cross-train in something like BJJ, because we understand that, like any style, there are holes in our training, and that to be a complete martial artist able to go up against other styles effectively, we need to understand grappling. We do our best to not go to the ground in normal Kumite, BUT...

It's like riding horses. I was talking to another horseperson once about learning emergency dismounts and learning how to fall a lot more safely. I asked her if she'd learned any of that, and she said, "Oh noooooo! I just learn to NEVER COME OFF THE HORSE!"

Here's the thing... if you ride a motorcycle, you're going to drop your bike at some point. If you ride horses, you're going to come off the horse sometime. If you fight outside of your dojo, and especially outside of your style when you're only a striking style, eventually, at some point, it's going to go to the ground. Maybe not 91% of the fights like some people claim, but at some point it's probably going to happen. What do you do then? Do you know what to do?

If we are too inflexible, we will eventually become relics.

That's part of why my dojo also has open sparring days, where all styles are welcome, and there tends to be as much rolling as there is stand-up. Maybe even more rolling...

We have to keep up with the times, we have to not compromise so much just to make money, and one other thing-

We have to keep up with the way people COMMUNICATE.

I've run into this attitude that karate should be secretive! Word of mouth only!

Well guess what? People don't make choices that way any more. Word of mouth? That's the INTERNET now. Secrets? Okay, I mean I can understand having some, but we aren't in feudal Japan any more.

People want to know what they're getting into. They rely on the internet to learn about the reputation of a school. They really do. They go on yelp. They read BLOGS. They want to feel a connection BEFORE they walk in the door.

Not everybody can have or wants a TV show... but if we want to connect to the public, gain a reputation, keep our styles ALIVE, I think we need to be prepared to tell a story. We need to be willing to draw people in, to show them some of our world. Not for our own glory and not as a stroking of the ego, but as a means of communication that is effective in the modern world. With no students, there are no teachers.

This is an era where being too secretive is met with suspicion. It is not looked upon with some sense of mystical reverence. Instead of thinking, "this is a great honor to be included in this elite society that gains special knowledge," people will say "what do they have to hide? Are they afraid they will look silly? That they won't measure up to the UFC and MMA? That they'll be exposed as frauds?"

It's like... restaurants in China.

Here in the states, a brightly lit restaurant is usually seen as a cheap place. Dimly lit places are full of mood lighting, and seen as classy. That's the past.

In China, a dimly lit place is trying to hide poor quality food and cockroaches. A brightly lit place is clean with good food, and seen as a good, classy restaurant. They have nothing to hide, and are full of flash and flair. That's the present of martial arts in the eyes of the public.

So if you want to bring it back, adapt, innovate, overcome, grow. Hold fast to your standards of training... and tell them a story.

But It DID happen, we have from Kyokushin

Ashihara Karate

Enshin Karate

Daido Juku Budo

And other styles which are not mentioned but can be found on the web

All exactly what you have described above

[Shotoseidoka]

This is a great topic with a lot of differnet views...mostly with one thing in common; 'karate needs to adapt'.

I started karate before the 'McDojo' phase and have stuck with karate stricktly for 12yrs before trying different styles. During my time with the other arts I was able to see how they fit into my karate training. This was deepend once I started to studying Karate again in Okinawa, as there is a difference when practiced lets say in the states; where business gets in the way.

A few of the other posters had mentioned that there needs to be more 'qualified' instructors. This I agree with more than anything as being on Okinawa, living amongst the people, training with them in both karate and local dance, I've come to know Karate as, probably the most original MMA. The Uchinan-chu (Okinawans) took what they thought to be the best techniques from all fighting styles in asia and added it to their art.

As some of the others stated most schools today teach a watered down version...i think this is true for two reasons:

1. Addaption by the Main-land Japanese

2. Commercialization.

1. When Karate was introduced to Japan it had to adapt to the Japanese way, which at the time ment 'Sport'. Many of the highly effective techniques were quickly lost.

2. As Karate started to spread as a 'Sport' it became further watered down, as the combative techniques became a thing of the past. Meanwhile, back on little Okinawa...the teachers with the full knowledge of the more effective techniques of karate were starting to die out and with them their knowledge as they kept the tradition of only teaching their most dedicated/talented student these techniques and in turn their students did the same until we got to the point where we are now asking each other these questions...Why isn't Karate popular? What's the real meaning to Kata? etc...

So, does karate need to addapt or as Karateka do we need to addapt?

IMHO, it is us the practitioners. So, How do 'WE' fix this?? I suggest researching history (not just your style but it's lineage and sister styles), adding a little history lesson while doing warm-ups/cool-downs, remain as openminded as possible, and pass on what've you learned don't keep it to yourself.

[bushido_man96]

Evergrey: great post.

[evergrey]

OSU, thank you, bushido_man96!

And Dobbersky- I accept and acknowledge the styles that developed out of Kyokushin. I just cannot speak for them, as I have never experienced them. I can only speak for Kyokushin because that is what I know.

[Dobbersky]

OSU, thank you, bushido_man96!

And Dobbersky- I accept and acknowledge the styles that developed out of Kyokushin. I just cannot speak for them, as I have never experienced them. I can only speak for Kyokushin because that is what I know.

OSU!! Evergrey-san

Definately plenty of info for you to attain, especially on K4L!

Are there no Ashihara or Enshin Dojo's that you and some of the guys can go and train with to see how we do it, Garyu kata to me is where Ashihara and Enshin Kata stemed from!

You are ALWAYS welcome in my Dojo if ever you get to come over to Manchester, I will show you how Ashihara has moved on from Kyokushin, (Ashihara Kancho was one of Sosai's Uchi Deshi at the same time as Hanshi Steve Arneill, and was one of Sosai's best ambassadors of Kyokushin, until he had to leave for various reasons).

[evergrey]

OSU, thank you Dobbersky, I'm honored by your invitation, and if I ever manage to get out there, I'll be sure to look you good folks up! :}

I think there are some Enshin dojos around... I met an Enshin instructor at a local tournament but I don't think any of his guys entered. I could be wrong. I don't know of any local Ashihara folks. Always happy to meet new knockdown people, and martial artists in general, though.

OSU!

[Kevin Wilson]

I put it down to the way that (well in Scotland) we treat it as a hobby ( all be its very serious one) all my instructers seem to have the attitude that its karate you should want to train it. You should want to travel for miles to the best club and then travel halfway up the country for every grading ( from 10th ) from the best sensei because it ment something. If you should just wake up one morning wanting to do karate and not join an other martial art or association.

unfortunately this doesn't bring people in. That's why I believe my association is dying even though it has some of the best instructors I know (thanks to there rep I have been privileged to train with head instructors from around the world and from many styles) .

people may see it as a bad thing but even though I respect my karate instructors I think they need to meet in the middle with " customers" . Not to go to the extreme taekwondo does with heavy marketing all over the place all the time but just some were between. It would do karate and especially our association a world of good ! don't you think ?

[UselessDave]

IMHO karate was seen to lose it value, after too many within it lost sight of the values of karate. Chasing quantity over quality, undermining these values for money. Selling the art short and undermining it, too make it easy to teach lots of kids. The end result of all this, has resulted in this 'product' , being seen as all there is to karate. That it is not fit for purpose and has lost its value.

Andy

Now that is just very well said. So true.

[UselessDave]

I put it down to the way that (well in Scotland) we treat it as a hobby ( all be its very serious one) all my instructers seem to have the attitude that its karate you should want to train it. You should want to travel for miles to the best club and then travel halfway up the country for every grading ( from 10th ) from the best sensei because it ment something. If you should just wake up one morning wanting to do karate and not join an other martial art or association.

unfortunately this doesn't bring people in. That's why I believe my association is dying even though it has some of the best instructors I know (thanks to there rep I have been privileged to train with head instructors from around the world and from many styles) .

people may see it as a bad thing but even though I respect my karate instructors I think they need to meet in the middle with " customers" . Not to go to the extreme taekwondo does with heavy marketing all over the place all the time but just some were between. It would do karate and especially our association a world of good ! don't you think ?

With that, going to the best instructors and so to learn "the best", is difficult also because some people don't even realize those differences. So many don't know they are in a bad club. Many good dojos are struggling with that same issue. Because of the way that life goes now, no one can really ever be sure weather there'll be anyone training "here" at "some time later". Anyone can quit any time, no matter how far they are. And beginners come and go...