Why did karate lose its value?

[sensei8]

Each and every style of the MA has its pros and cons across the board. NO style is without its own flaws, and there are a few shared elements in karate, so such, that karate wishes these unfavorable elements weren't associated with any karate. Howbeit, this same thing could be said for any said style of the MA.

Karate has its "flaws", this I don't deny. But to lump every style of karate in an unfavorable light, imho, is unfair. Shindokan is old school Okinawan karate; our Soke and Dai-Soke were born/raised in Okinawa, and in that, our Soke and Dai-Soke did cast away as many imperfections associated with karate so that the "old" can meet up with the "new/current" to remain a viable entity without discarding its traditional Okinawan roots.

I believe in Shindokan, and if you had a moment to experience it, I'm sure you'd believe in it as well. Ask Brian his honest opinion since he's had an opportunity to experience it, albeit, if his exposure to Shindokan was only a very slight glimpse of it.

[bushido_man96]

Karate had its time. Why not anymore, exactly?

One thing that someone's gonna say would be that people don't have the patience anymore. But some people do. Wonder where dose come such a difference.

To me, like for most of you, it's clear that I continue training, and has always been. For some it's just a stupid style, and they can't understand why would anybody think it's any good.

Any outlooks?

I don't really think Karate's time is up (or any traditional style, for that matter). It does, however, clearly have to compete with MMA now. And this isn't a bad thing, either. If people would rather do MMA than a traditional style, then so be it.

I think that when it comes to the more traditional styles, the "intrinsic" values are the deciding factor for many who choose what Art to take up when they do take one up. Personally speaking, I don't need to be soliliquized about how my traditional training will make me a better person, will make me more disciplined, and all that other stuff. Some people just want to learn how to fight, or how to defend themselves well. That is where the appeal of MMA comes in, as opposed to a more traditional style. There is also the appearance that the results come faster, which may make it more appealing. I think these are the aspects that affect the decision making process when someone is searching for a Martial Art to study. Fifty years ago, Karate was what was available. Now, there is so much more available.

[bushido_man96]

The real question should be, how do we make karate respected and popular again? Just yesterday I was saying how my son takes karate to a neighborhood kid. He almost immediately said he wants to take BJJ. My hat's off to the Gracies for their amazing marketing.

True, but also for having a great product that has show itself to be effective in multiple setting many times.

Like more Machitas in the UFC?

I agree with tallgeese's assesment here. BJJ made its mark when Royce was winning. More Machidas wouldn't hurt Karate's cause at all.

[sojobo]

I don't really think Karate's time is up (or any traditional style, for that matter).

I agree wholeheartedly with you and Sensei8 here.

It occurs to me - particularly in this day and age of stress and misery - that the study of traditional arts like Karate and jujutsu is on the up, as they provide an oasis from the everyday drudgery of life.

They add a kind of value to life that is very difficult to compare.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

The real question should be, how do we make karate respected and popular again? Just yesterday I was saying how my son takes karate to a neighborhood kid. He almost immediately said he wants to take BJJ. My hat's off to the Gracies for their amazing marketing.

True, but also for having a great product that has show itself to be effective in multiple setting many times.

Like more Machitas in the UFC?

I agree with tallgeese's assesment here. BJJ made its mark when Royce was winning. More Machidas wouldn't hurt Karate's cause at all.

We probably wouldn't even be talking about karate if it weren't for Motubu and his victory in a match like UFC of its day. The irony is rich.

[RW]

The real question should be, how do we make karate respected and popular again? Just yesterday I was saying how my son takes karate to a neighborhood kid. He almost immediately said he wants to take BJJ. My hat's off to the Gracies for their amazing marketing.

True, but also for having a great product that has show itself to be effective in multiple setting many times.

Like more Machitas in the UFC?

I agree with tallgeese's assesment here. BJJ made its mark when Royce was winning. More Machidas wouldn't hurt Karate's cause at all.

For some reason, there is a HUGE marketing force against karate.

Everytime machida wins a fight, all the MMA bros go like "what machida does is not karate, he may have that background, but he does "MMA" now". Apparently, all it takes for an MMA fighter is to use ONE technique that is not karate-like for it becoming "teh MMA". However, a guy doing "Muay Thai" can use submissions, takedowns and pretty much anything he wants and it is still MMA. I put quote marks around Muay Thai because... many MMA fighters simply learn kickboxing with elbows and knees (not true muay thai) yet nobody questions it.

When I point out to people in MMA forums that GSP, Chuck Lidell, Seth Petruzelli, Bas Rutten, etc. all have a karate background, I get the same silly reply: "but they do MMA/muay thai now".

There's no winning... it's ridiculous.

[JusticeZero]

They are further defining what they do as a specific STYLE by saying that. If a TKD stylist trains and starts competing in Kyokushin matches, it can be said by the Kyokushin folks that "She has a TKD background, yes.. but she does Kyokushin now." It's because the style and the venue are closely linked. If you train and do the venue and conforming to the demands of the rules, you are doing the style. MMA more and more is.. a style. Like Karate. Or like TKD. Or like Boxing. No more, no less.

[bushido_man96]

JusticeZero is on point here, I think. MMA is becoming more and more its own style, and we are witnessing the evolution of it in our time. I don't think its right to discount the fact that guys like Liddell, Rutten, and Machida do have some more traditional backgrounds, but at the same time, the MMA guys have a point, because although Machida came up with Shotokan, he is not training like most Shotokan stylists around the world. I really doubt he spends a lot of time on kata and bunkai, and spends a good portion of his time on grappling now.

So, at this juncture, one has to decide if Machida is doing Karate, just in his own way, or that he is not doing Karate any more, because he has moved away from the "standard training procedure" of Karate, the way "true" Karate is trained.

Personally, I could care less. I call Machida a Karate guy, but also an MMA guy.

[brickshooter]

Well, there's professional MMA. And there's weekend warrior MMA.

Professional MMA fighters will look at Machida and say "hey, that's Karate. I want to learn it." So fighters like Vitor Belford after getting his clock cleaned by Silva, added a Karate trainer.

At the opposite end of the spectrum is the Weekend MMA warrior. He's stuck in his 2 year iron-clad contract. So the best that he'll do is stay in denial. Machida's kick isn't Shotokan, it's a high MT push kick. It's not a foot sweep, it's a low thigh kick & trip. Etc.

[RW]

JusticeZero is on point here, I think. MMA is becoming more and more its own style, and we are witnessing the evolution of it in our time. I don't think its right to discount the fact that guys like Liddell, Rutten, and Machida do have some more traditional backgrounds, but at the same time, the MMA guys have a point, because although Machida came up with Shotokan, he is not training like most Shotokan stylists around the world. I really doubt he spends a lot of time on kata and bunkai, and spends a good portion of his time on grappling now.

So, at this juncture, one has to decide if Machida is doing Karate, just in his own way, or that he is not doing Karate any more, because he has moved away from the "standard training procedure" of Karate, the way "true" Karate is trained.

Personally, I could care less. I call Machida a Karate guy, but also an MMA guy.

MMA is becoming kind of its own style. You have MMA gym now, in the same way you have karate or taekwondo schools.

However, when people enroll in those classes, they usually take a BJJ class and a Muay thai class.

On the machida thing, there is a HUGE double standard. So, (according to others, not you), "machida does not do karate anymore" because he does no kata or bunkai anymore. However, Shogun is 100% a muay thai guy despite the fact that I seriously doubt that his training resembles this in any way: