Why did karate lose its value?

[sri_mersing81]

i see Karate has lost its value just from the fact the decrease of the students.

My opinion is that there are three reasons:

1) Wrong marketing strategy - some movies, Karate is perceived as the 'dark side' of the martial art. Example like Bruce Lee VS Chuck Norris or how Donnie Yap beat the crap out of ten Karatekas in 'IP man'. This led to the belief that Karateka is worthless opponent. Other martial artists might behave rude by spitting onto ur Karate Gi while open sparring tournament, but then again, a slap of Ura Mawashi put them to good sleep TKO.

2) Student nowadays are too soft and tend to quit if the training is too hard for them to handle. They prefer something like Capoeira which is more popular and non lethal (They haven't seen a real Capoeiritas in action!)

3) The ideology of which the Senseis carry can be put as the measurement of how good the martial art is. Let alone if ur motto is : "The best fights u can win are the ones u can avoid!"

LOL.

[brickshooter]

Also a factor is the adatption of "high-points" Karate tournaments that promotes tap-tap scoring. Consequently the tap-tap system influenced the way Karate was taught. Karate dojos replaced their more serious training for tap-tap training. Techiques that can do great damage was replaced with techniques that can score points. Strategy also changed. Once upon a time, people were scared of getting swept. Now. Everyone bounces because the worst thing that can happen is losing 1 point.

[bushido_man96]

i see Karate has lost its value just from the fact the decrease of the students.

My opinion is that there are three reasons:

1) Wrong marketing strategy - some movies, Karate is perceived as the 'dark side' of the martial art. Example like Bruce Lee VS Chuck Norris or how Donnie Yap beat the crap out of ten Karatekas in 'IP man'. This led to the belief that Karateka is worthless opponent. Other martial artists might behave rude by spitting onto ur Karate Gi while open sparring tournament, but then again, a slap of Ura Mawashi put them to good sleep TKO.

2) Student nowadays are too soft and tend to quit if the training is too hard for them to handle. They prefer something like Capoeira which is more popular and non lethal (They haven't seen a real Capoeiritas in action!)

3) The ideology of which the Senseis carry can be put as the measurement of how good the martial art is. Let alone if ur motto is : "The best fights u can win are the ones u can avoid!"

LOL.

I don't really agree with your points here. I don't think movies have had that much of an impact on the state of Karate right now. Ip Man wasn't a mainstream movie, not in the U.S. anyway, and the people who watch a movie like that are likely Martial Artists anyways, and wouldn't be swayed to the "ineffectiveness" of Karate because of a movie fight scene. Capoeira is also not a very common Martial Art, as in its availability; perhaps your area is different, but I've never seen a school, even in travelling.

Just my thoughts, but I don't think Karate has been affected by these things as much as its been affected by the arrival of MMA and BJJ.

[RW]

touch sparring-exclusive techniques also spoiled karate.

While I definitely see the value of touch-sparring, students AND teachers alike are guilty of over-emphasizing this and exploiting the ruleset to produce innefective, useless techniques that in my opinion amount to cheating.

For example, people looove "blitzing", i.e. jumping towards the opponent, almost flying, face-first, in order to cover a long distance very very quick and score a quick point (i.e. light tap) on the opponent's helmet or stomach.

This technique would be USELESS on a fight (seriously, who jumps face-first towards someone?), especially since the opponent relies on the fact that they cannot be punched on the face (i.e. exploiting a ruleset), and can only score a point (i.e. a tap), not a real, forceful strike. Not to mention that this only works because if they miss, they can fall to the ground or keep running and the match will be interrupted by the referee and opponents will assume their positions again.

Tippy-tappy techniques abound now too, where the opponent jumps around with his foot already chambered, waiting to deliver a very quick but weak kick... seriously?

[tallgeese]

i see Karate has lost its value just from the fact the decrease of the students.

My opinion is that there are three reasons:

1) Wrong marketing strategy - some movies, Karate is perceived as the 'dark side' of the martial art. Example like Bruce Lee VS Chuck Norris or how Donnie Yap beat the crap out of ten Karatekas in 'IP man'. This led to the belief that Karateka is worthless opponent. Other martial artists might behave rude by spitting onto ur Karate Gi while open sparring tournament, but then again, a slap of Ura Mawashi put them to good sleep TKO.

2) Student nowadays are too soft and tend to quit if the training is too hard for them to handle. They prefer something like Capoeira which is more popular and non lethal (They haven't seen a real Capoeiritas in action!)

3) The ideology of which the Senseis carry can be put as the measurement of how good the martial art is. Let alone if ur motto is : "The best fights u can win are the ones u can avoid!"

LOL.

I don't really agree with your points here. I don't think movies have had that much of an impact on the state of Karate right now. Ip Man wasn't a mainstream movie, not in the U.S. anyway, and the people who watch a movie like that are likely Martial Artists anyways, and wouldn't be swayed to the "ineffectiveness" of Karate because of a movie fight scene. Capoeira is also not a very common Martial Art, as in its availability; perhaps your area is different, but I've never seen a school, even in travelling.

Just my thoughts, but I don't think Karate has been affected by these things as much as its been affected by the arrival of MMA and BJJ.

I have to side with bushido man on this. There is defiantly more impact on karate these days from the influx of BJJ and MMA. Some of this influx has been a good thing. Karate has been begging to be modernized in certain ways for some time now. Science and psychology have both moved forward, the methods we use to train in our arts should relfect if we want the most out of them.

Another point I'd like to make is the last one about the idea of teaching students not to fight. Unless you're specifically talking about training for competition, which I'm certainly not opposed to if that's your goad, I think it's irresponsible to teach anything other than this. To fight, to deploy your skills out side of organized contest means a situation has arisen that threatens your well being. Anything less is not worth the risk and an abuse of what you're doing.

So if you're a coach and telling your guys the best fights are the ones you manage to get yourself into in the real world and win, then you're essentially teaching them to violate the law. Fine, but you'll eventually lose student base to jail.

People who really like no- holds barred conflict on the street probably haven't been in one.

[tallgeese]

touch sparring-exclusive techniques also spoiled karate.

While I definitely see the value of touch-sparring, students AND teachers alike are guilty of over-emphasizing this and exploiting the ruleset to produce innefective, useless techniques that in my opinion amount to cheating.

For example, people looove "blitzing", i.e. jumping towards the opponent, almost flying, face-first, in order to cover a long distance very very quick and score a quick point (i.e. light tap) on the opponent's helmet or stomach.

This technique would be USELESS on a fight (seriously, who jumps face-first towards someone?), especially since the opponent relies on the fact that they cannot be punched on the face (i.e. exploiting a ruleset), and can only score a point (i.e. a tap), not a real, forceful strike. Not to mention that this only works because if they miss, they can fall to the ground or keep running and the match will be interrupted by the referee and opponents will assume their positions again.

Tippy-tappy techniques abound now too, where the opponent jumps around with his foot already chambered, waiting to deliver a very quick but weak kick... seriously?

Another post I agree with to a great degree. Competition is great, it's a fantastic way to pressure test movements that you're working on. Quite frankly, it's as close in some ways to a fight as most people will get. It can be invaluable for building a "pre-combat veteran" for an encounter and to stress inoculate an individual artist.

One issue that always comes up is that no competiton will ever mimic a real fight. True. However, the proper venue can still pressure test technique. Saying a modality is not perfect and therefore worthless does not hold water. It's a training tool. Use it as such. Martial artists need to wrap their head around this.

MMA gets a bad rap from trad guys because it doesn't account for tactics outside the realm of it's rules. What they often overlook is that look at it outside this, and it's a great microcosm for testing one's unarmed skills on many levels. It's a training modality. If used properly it can benefit any art.

Now, where RW makes an excellent point is that often we choose poor modalities. The heavy emphasis on point fighting has developed poor tactics from many schools.

[Montana]

Karate has NOT lost any value in my honest opinion!! Karate is still quite viable across the board. Perhaps it's only viewed as valueless by the masses that aren't experienced in karate for whatever reason(s).

I'm a karateka, and I've been a karateka for many, many, many years; therefore, me, being a karateka, I've no value at all...none whatsoever!!

Not only am I a karateka, but I'm a traditional karateka, and have been my entire life, and now, because of that, now, I'm irrelevant, of no use.

Yep..me too! Couple of old ...uhhhh...dudes I guess.

[sensei8]

Karate has NOT lost any value in my honest opinion!! Karate is still quite viable across the board. Perhaps it's only viewed as valueless by the masses that aren't experienced in karate for whatever reason(s).

I'm a karateka, and I've been a karateka for many, many, many years; therefore, me, being a karateka, I've no value at all...none whatsoever!!

Not only am I a karateka, but I'm a traditional karateka, and have been my entire life, and now, because of that, now, I'm irrelevant, of no use.

Yep..me too! Couple of old ...uhhhh...dudes I guess.

ROFL...what's one to do?!

[Cayuga Karate]

I don’t believe that anything has changed in karate that has caused it to lose value. It is my belief that other arts have become increasingly popular because they provide training for fighting that many believe better prepares a fighter to be able to defend himself.

There are many issues here, and I could write at great length on a number of them. I find it best to summarize them. I can provide more detail, as requested.

Before I go further, let me make clear, I am a long-term student of karate, having received my shodan 30 years ago, and have been active since. For the last 12 years I have had a University dojo, where I have had the opportunity to train hundreds of students. I have had substantial opportunity to train in many karate dojos across a broad range of systems.

Most everything I practice and teach revolves around Okinawan empty hand kata.

Following are a number of concepts I teach my students about Okinawan kata and fighting.

I teach my students that there are three basic rules of understanding the value of kata and self-defense.

1. Many movements in kata provide for body mechanics that are well-suited for the delivery of maximum kinetic energy to desired targets.

2. Much in kata has to be adjusted to work effectively in self-defense.

3. Many kata sequences do not lend themselves to effective self-defense. (This depends on the definition of sequences, which I define as the complete set of movements in a given direction.)

I also provide significant comparisons of the training for effective fighting, and training in kata.

1. Effective fighters keep their hands around their head, protecting it. Most strikes are launched from a position of the hands near the chin and head.

2. In kata, chambered hands are at the hip or ribs, and the forward hand blocks most often clear the torso area, with the hand rising to shoulder height. In kata, strikes are launched from the hip or rib cage.

3. Effective fighters most frequently aim for targets above the torso. The chin is a preferred target. There are a variety of useful targets in the head and neck.

4. In kata, a great majority of the strikes are aimed towards the center of the torso.

5. Effective fighters practice and deliver strikes in multi-strike combinations.

6. In kata, multi-strike combinations are the exception, not the rule.

7. Effective fighters generally don’t move the same way that is found in a great number of kata sequences. Effective fighters shuffle forwards and backwards, most often keeping their strong hand back.

8. In kata, there are a great variety of forward stepping movements that approximate walking forward. It is quite common to walk forward, in stances in three or four steps.

9. Effective fighters use stances that are most frequently fairly upright.

10. Many kata from many systems have a variety of stances that are long and low.

11. Effective fighters move their feet at great speed.

12. In kata, there are frequent pauses in stances.

13. Effective fighters move their hands at great speed.

14. In kata, there are frequent pauses where the hands stop.

15. Effective fighters tend to emphasize low roundhouse kicks to the knees and legs. Front kicks and side kicks to the torso are not emphasized.

16. In kata, there are no roundhouse kicks. In kata, front kicks and side kicks are most common.

17. Effective fighters, when practicing with an opponent, have to deal with strikes to the head, in combinations, from attackers who quickly shuffle in, strike, and retreat immediately.

18. In the practice of kata application, a great number of karate schools have the attacker step in (walk forward) in a locked stance, and punch to the torso, momentarily locking in a frozen position.

19. Effective fighters understand the fundamental need to be able to fight on the ground.

20. Kata has no real groundfighting components.

21. Effective fighters practice combinations that they understand.

22. In many karate schools, it is often the norm that students don’t train all that much in fighting aspects of kata movements. For those that do, it is quite common that the applications are unrealistic, that they are unlikely to be successful in a fight against a bigger attacker who is mobile, strikes fast to the head, and resists locking techniques.

If one looks back at the success of karate in the West beginning in the 1960s, one can recognize significant growth, and more recently a decline. BJJ schools, PMA, Muay Thai, and all sorts of mixes found in MMA have begun to flourish. Why? I believe that karate, in part, achieved widespread popularity because it offered those wanting to learn self-defense a number of advantages over western boxing. First it had kicks and sweeps, something boxing did not have. Second, many systems had some grappling elements including escapes from grabs, as well as joint locks. Third, there was far less risk of injury. Boxers punch to the head, and do so hard, and even with head gear, getting a head shot delivered by a larger, stronger, more capable puncher is not an experience many want to go through. Most karate schools don’t allow head strikes, certainly not head strikes with contact.

People could improve their self-defense skills with karate practice. Kumite was a different model of fight practice than boxing had, but it has clear benefits. Understanding of distance, improved reaction, faster kicks and strikes all come with regular kumite practice.

But as MMA has come into the public view, younger students, who would have chosen to train in karate when it was the only option in town, often now have MMA schools, and it doesn’t take long to recognize that the training more closely aligns with actual fighting than what is generally found in kata. Even when one includes the practice of kumite, the typical training of karate schools is not considered by a growing segment of those who train in fighting, as providing appropriate training to best improve one’s chances of successfully defending oneself.

I believe that the study of kata, and karate in general provide all sorts of benefits, and that improved self-defense is one of them. But I recognize that much of kata does not map directly to effective fighting. Students of karate come up with all sorts of interesting applications for kata, but many who view them wonder to what extent they prepare one to adequately defend against a large opponent, shuffling and, launching fast powerful combinations against your head. There are some movements in kata that do address this challenge, but it is my experience that much of the movements we find in kata do not.

People who want to learn how to defend themselves have options today. And MMA is offering them training in effective ways to protect themselves against larger attackers pummeling their heads. It does not include kata, with hands down low, walking forward in stiff stances striking to targets down low. These concepts leave the head completely unprotected which is a very, very risky way to try to defend yourself.

I would be grateful if posters here would consider one final point I want to reiterate. I am dedicated to the training of kata, and believe they have great value. But I firmly believe that much of what often passes for "bunkai" has far more bunk that bunkai.

This is a long post that makes a number of brief points that may generate questions or comments. I would be grateful for those that want to comment if you would quote specific points and not the entire text.

Cayuga Karate

[sensei8]

i see Karate has lost its value just from the fact the decrease of the students.

My opinion is that there are three reasons:

1) Wrong marketing strategy - some movies, Karate is perceived as the 'dark side' of the martial art. Example like Bruce Lee VS Chuck Norris or how Donnie Yap beat the crap out of ten Karatekas in 'IP man'. This led to the belief that Karateka is worthless opponent. Other martial artists might behave rude by spitting onto ur Karate Gi while open sparring tournament, but then again, a slap of Ura Mawashi put them to good sleep TKO.

2) Student nowadays are too soft and tend to quit if the training is too hard for them to handle. They prefer something like Capoeira which is more popular and non lethal (They haven't seen a real Capoeiritas in action!)

3) The ideology of which the Senseis carry can be put as the measurement of how good the martial art is. Let alone if ur motto is : "The best fights u can win are the ones u can avoid!"

LOL.

Imho, the true reason for the student decrease is the economic downturn. The MA, not just Karate, is a WANT and not a NEED. One needs to pay rent, buy groceries, pay utilities, and the like. One wants to learn the MA, but the money it takes each and every month to partake in MA classes can be used for something more important, as I've noted already.