Changing Karate Styles

[Ueshirokarate]

So back to differences between Wado and Shotokan

it can be seen in the first kata

Shotokan's Heian Shodan (Kanazawa Sensei)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgg8vF_l8ZI

Wado's Pinan Nidan (Jiro Otsuka Sensei)

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.

[Dobbersky]

So back to differences between Wado and Shotokan

it can be seen in the first kata

Shotokan's Heian Shodan (Kanazawa Sensei)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgg8vF_l8ZI

Wado's Pinan Nidan (Jiro Otsuka Sensei)

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.

Exactly Ueshiro-san

Its just dare I say a difference of opinion. Or for example may be a different Dialect, i have read that Otsuka Sensei practiced the Pinans/Heians the same way as Funakoshi but either Mabuni Sensei of Shito-ryu and Motobu Choki Sensei re-taught Otsuka Sensei the Kata the "original" way?

[sojobo]

So back to differences between Wado and Shotokan

it can be seen in the first kata

Shotokan's Heian Shodan (Kanazawa Sensei)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgg8vF_l8ZI

Wado's Pinan Nidan (Jiro Otsuka Sensei)

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.

I beg to differ.

I don't see many techniques that are the same.

There is even a variation in the embussen.

I am at work at the moment so can't spend too much time on the subject, but I will expand later on tonight.

Sojobo

[sojobo]

For those who are unsure about Wado Gumite here's a good example, they make it look easy

Kihon Gumite

These are not Kihon Gumite featured in this clip.

The pair work detailed here is Kumite Gata which is a different set.

Kumite Gata are only really practiced within the Wado-ryu renmei. The JKF Wado-kai and WIKF do not practice these (strictly speaking).

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

So back to differences between Wado and Shotokan

it can be seen in the first kata

Shotokan's Heian Shodan (Kanazawa Sensei)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgg8vF_l8ZI

Wado's Pinan Nidan (Jiro Otsuka Sensei)

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.

I beg to differ.

I don't see many techniques that are the same.

There is even a variation in the embussen.

I am at work at the moment so can't spend too much time on the subject, but I will expand later on tonight.

Sojobo

I don't really see anything that would substantially change what the performer is doing. Yes, there are substantial stylistic differences. There is no doubt about this. However, the performer is still pretty much delivering the same techniques in the same sequence. Just as in my style's version of the kata. It isn't like suddenly the kata move has gone from a knife hand to the gut or upper punch from a down-block. It is still a down-block. Here is the Matsubayashi version:

It would be very interesting to be on the deck together exploring bunkai of each. I believe the biggest difference is in the ending sequence. Wado employes a shuto zuke where as in Matsubayashi and Shotokan it is a shuto uke the latter having a jigotai dachi stance and the former a neko ashi dachi. That said, even when we are delivering a shuto-uke with one hand, the other can deliver a shuto-zuke, so at the end of the day we are still all traveling parallel paths.

[sojobo]

I don't really see anything that would substantially change what the performer is doing. Yes, there are substantial stylistic differences. There is no doubt about this. However, the performer is still pretty much delivering the same techniques in the same sequence. Just as in my style's version of the kata. It isn't like suddenly the kata move has gone from a knife hand to the gut or upper punch from a down-block. It is still a down-block. Here is the Matsubayashi version:

It would be very interesting to be on the deck together exploring bunkai of each. I believe the biggest difference is in the ending sequence. Wado employes a shuto zuke where as in Matsubayashi and Shotokan it is a shuto uke the latter having a jigotai dachi stance and the former a neko ashi dachi. That said, even when we are delivering a shuto-uke with one hand, the other can deliver a shuto-zuke, so at the end of the day we are still all traveling parallel paths.

As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.

You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.

Another important point to consider.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.

You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.

Another important point to consider.

Sojobo

Looking forward to it.

[Dobbersky]

As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.

You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.

Another important point to consider.

Sojobo

Looking forward to it.

I am too,

Also would you be able to expand on the difference between Wado Ryu and Wado Kai, my appologies for not differenciating between the 2 on my post regards Kihon Gumite

[sojobo]

Trying to explain karate in detail on a technical level over internet is never easy. Not always a good thing to try even.

I suppose the first point I would always say would be to look beyond the technique – ie don’t just look at the kicks and punches – look at what the body is doing as a complete unit - how it is moving.

What the hey, let’s have a go...

First technique:

Shoto version: Turn 90 deg to the left – perform gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi.

Wado version: No (or little) rotation of torso – perform chudan otoshi tetsui-uke in Hanmi nekoashi dachi.

Result:

Shotokan employs “single moment” rotation of the hips to power the gedan barai whereas wado uses double moment. Distance changes and weight distribution are entirely different.

The two versions apply very differently.

Punches:

Shoto version uses Oi-zuki.

Wado version uses Junzuki -they are different techniques, they look the same but the weight distribution is different and the power generation not quite the same.

Jodan Uke’s:

Shoto uses Jodan age uke - finishes in front of the forehead.

Wado Jodan uke arm finishes directly above the head.

Also, note the lack of opposite arm preparation in the Wado version.

Last 4 techniques:

Shoto version: Shuto uke in kokotsu-dachi

Wado version: Nukite in shiko dachi

Result:

The techniques and application are completely different.

In the Shoto version, the hips and arm movement work in concert to support a block or a strike that that enters from the side.

In the Wado version the hips open out in counter direction to the hand technique which is tsuki. We refer to this as opening the body.

Rather than blocking/striking from the side the arms travel directly down the seichussen.

It can be used as a direct strike but it is also ideal to perform “Noru” which is where you ride your opponents attacking technique whilst simultaneously striking. By rotation the body in a counter direction you are not only generating power in the technique, you are also changing the shape of your body and your line - essentially you are reducing the surface area shown to your opponent and giving ukes technique the slip.

If I think of anything else I will let you know.

Sojobo

Edited September 12, 2011 by sojobo

[sojobo]

Also would you be able to expand on the difference between Wado Ryu and Wado Kai, my appologies for not differenciating between the 2 on my post regards Kihon Gumite

There is no difference. It is all Wado-ryu, just different associations.

Once upon a time everyone who did Wado-ryu were members of the Wado-kai, but there are now 3 major groups:

JKF (Japan Karate Federation) Wado-kai*

Wado-ryu Renmei (Jiro Otsuka's Group).

WIKF (Wado international Karate Federation) the late Suzuki sensei group.

Hope that helps

Sojobo

* Note there is a group in Canada who also call themselves Wado-kai but they are nothing to do with the JKF Wado-kai.