What happens when you get a blackbelt?

[sojobo]

Don't know about other Karate groups but in ours, certificates are awarded with every successful grading (kyu and dan).

My JKF Wadokai dan grade certificates have unique numbers on them which are registration numbers that correspond to log entries held at the JKF Wadokai headquarters in Tokyo Japan.

Belts are pieces of cloth at the end of the day and certificates bits of paper - what counts is how good you do your "style" of karate.

You'll notice I wrote your “style” of karate as opposed to just being good at Karate. There is a world of difference between styles and schools and what counts is how well you have internalised the workings of the particular ryu-ha you are training.

Sojobo

[ps1]

I've earned 3 black belts to date. Not only did each black belt come with a certificate, each increase in dan rank or degree came with a certificate, additionally, each kyu or under black belt rank came with a certificate. Even in BJJ, we get certificates that validate our rank.

WOW, Kyu certificates?

Is this standard practice in arts like karate or TKD too?

It's been the standard in every martial art I've trained. Kung fu was just under a master instructor, no big organization, and he printed and handed out his own certificates. Shotokan Karate and Aiki Ju-Jitsu were both under the Kwanmuzendokai, a very large organization. In BJJ, I'm under the Pedro Sauer Brazilian Jiu-jitsu Association, whose ranks are validated by Master Sauer (and was authorized by Helio Gracie himself).

So, yes, big or small organizations tend to validate their ranks with a certificate of some kind.

[sensei8]

Imho, there might be a day in the far future, if it's not amongst us already, where whichever validations are authentic or not because the "masters" from the 'old days' will no longer be around or of any concern.

This is done and then that is done, and in the end, the martial arts will have been so subverted from one cause or another. It sure doesn't help our cause when we're already seeing the tremendous influx of so many "false" masters and their home made type certificates, the pureness of certificates has died, or is dying at our own hands.

Already, noted organizations within the martial arts are not being accepted by one noted organization(s) or another. Why? POLITICS!! The "My little red wagon is better than your little red wagon, and in that, I don't recognize your little red wagon as legitimate and the like" syndrome is slowly but surely destroying the original intent of any said certificate of the martial arts.

Within each of ours own organizations, we're all legitimate, it's outside of each of ours organizations, that might be the true test of one's legitimacy. Is it our knowledge/experience that bears legitimacy's true fruit? OR...is it our paid money to any outside organization(s) that makes us legitimate?

The answer to these questions might vary across the board, imho.

If you're not on the good ship lollipop...then you're not legitimate. If you don't have Okinawa/Japanese backing...then you're not legitimate If you don't have a Gracie, for example, stamp of approval...then you're not legitimate. This, to me, is a bunch of hogwash to say the least. Possibly it's time that we quit putting these organizations/masters on a pedestal. Imho, the proof of ones own legitimacy isn't found on a piece of paper, nor does it dwell within some master, nor is it found in any organization, nor is it found around your waist...NO...the proof is on the floor!!

If an inner-tube floated by, and saved my life from drowning; I would worship an inner-tube for the rest of my life.

[sojobo]

In my experience, a lot of the time, those that remonstrate about not needing authentication are the ones that need it most.

Karate is an Okinawan/Japanese ma. I would much prefer to train with someone that had credible paperwork to back that up.

Why? - Because I think you increase your chances in terms of learning a system accurately rather than one that is a karate styles cousin twice removed.

Sojobo

[Dobbersky]

In my experience, a lot of the time, those that remonstrate about not needing authentication are the ones that need it most.

Karate is an Okinawan/Japanese ma. I would much prefer to train with someone that had credible paperwork to back that up.

Why? - Because I think you increase your chances in terms of learning a system accurately rather than one that is a karate styles cousin twice removed.

Sojobo

So from what you are saying is that, to compare it to another situation, you would not allow a surgeon, even though they are the best in their field, to operate on you unless they were from a specific Medical College?

Pancration (spelling) is an art that's history is a bit sketchy, it is a recently rediscovered art that's founders had trained in other arts for many years before bringing it to the forefront. Krav Maga has the similar issues. American/Hawaiian Kempo Karate/Jujitsu delivers some of the best martial artists around, but most of them can't fully trace their lineage back to china/japan if not to Ed Parker. I would say as long as its not a belt factory (took you less than 3 1/2 years) or from GKR or similar then I would recognise your Dan grade in my school.

[sojobo]

So from what you are saying is that, to compare it to another situation, you would not allow a surgeon, even though they are the best in their field, to operate on you unless they were from a specific Medical College?

How do you define best in their field? Also - wouldn't you check that first - or would you take their word for it?

Sure, your surgery may work and even hold up for a number of years even, but over time it may fail?

How do you minimise the chances of that happening? - By going to the guys that hold qualifications with organisations that have a proven track record for quality - tried and tested over many, many years.

Sojobo

[Dobbersky]

So from what you are saying is that, to compare it to another situation, you would not allow a surgeon, even though they are the best in their field, to operate on you unless they were from a specific Medical College?

How do you define best in their field? Also - wouldn't you check that first - or would you take their word for it?

Sure, your surgery may work and even hold up for a number of years even, but over time it may fail?

How do you minimise the chances of that happening? - By going to the guys that hold qualifications with organisations that have a proven track record for quality - tried and tested over many, many years.

Sojobo

Its an honour to discuss this topic with you all. I don't disagree with you but just have a slightly different opinion.

If we look at your comment about the school having a true pedigree etc. The World Karate Federation recognises these styles of karate

Shotokan,

Shito-ryu,

Goju-ryu,

Wado-ryu.

Whereas the World Union of Karate-do Federation (WUKF) recognises these styles of karate.

Shotokan,

Shito-ryu,

Goju-ryu,

Wado-ryu,

Shorin-ryu,

Uechi-ryu,

Kyokushinkai,

Budokan.

So this means that if you are not one of these organisations and are a "pure" style without any outside influences then you're not a bonifide school.

Not many schools these days that are pure without outside influences where the senior instructor hasn't trained in a few styles and merged them to make one!

The thing is the "pure" styles are not that pure in themselves either

Shotokan - a mixture of Okinawan Te,

Shito-ryu - a mixture of Okinawan Te,

Goju-ryu - a mixture of Okinawan Te,

Wado-ryu - a mixture of Shotokan & Jujitsu,

Shorin-ryu - a mixture of Okinawan Te,

Uechi-ryu - a mixture of Okinawan Te,

Kyokushinkai - a mixture of Goju, Shotokan & other influences,

Budokan - not sure of origins.

[sojobo]

Hi,

Those are styles.

What I was referring to is associations.

ie JKA (Shotokan), or JKF (Wado) etc.

You stand a much better chance of learning good Wado for example from a group that is part of the JKF Wadokai and even better if its instructors have JKF Instructor qualifications.

That's no to say of course that you won't learn fantastic Karate from someone who isn't part of a major organisation, it’s just your odds are greatly reduced.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but oh well.

I've received certificates for each colored and black belt rank that I've achieved. I think it has become commonplace now for organizations to do this.

Yes, problems do pop up when crossing organizations. I've been a victim of that myself, going from one TKD org to another. I didn't let it bother me, though, because although they don't have to recognize rank, they will eventually come to recognize skill and knowledge levels.

I think in the end, what matters is if one feels comfortable and confident in what they have learned and achieved. If they do, then I don't think the need to be "officially recognized" by another organization is all that important.

[RW]

I never got some sort of certificate for any of my Kyu ranks, and I practiced for YEARS and got the 1st Kyu rank

Maybe I was in a Mcdojo?