TKD Rant

[Lupin1]

Again, though, I know this is in no way representative of all TKD schools. There are just so many of them that ones like this are very common and so this is what a lot of people think of when they think TKD.

I see this a lot. "So many of them" equals how many of the ones you know of in your area, though? You admit you've seen one. Have you been to or checked all of the TKD schools in your area? What about Karate schools practicing XMA forms and weapons? Would they fall under that category, as well?

Well I have lived in 3 completely different areas the past few years (Virginia, New Hampshire and New Mexico), so I'm sampling from my experiences in three different areas of the country. I'm also going off discussions with other martial artists I've talked to who have lived in even more different areas of the country (Washington, Wisconsin, California, Arizona, Florida). On top of that, I'm looking back at what others have said throughout the rest of this discussion and many people who've posted, all from different areas, seem to have the same feelings about it being a bit of a trend. Obviously no one person could have visited every TKD school in the world, but most have had enough contact with different schools or had discussions about them to get a general idea. That's how humans form concepts and opinions. I haven't eaten every chocolate cake in the world, but I know that most of them are delicious (and I also know there are some that aren't and there are some people who hate chocolate cake period).

And I did say twice in my post that I know that my experiences aren't representative of every TKD school, so I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to tell me that my experiences aren't representative of every TKD school. The topic is trying to determine why many people have negative connotations of TKD schools, not really whether or not those connotations are accurate or justified. I'll agree that they're really not. But I'm also trying to offer an explaination as to why people may be developing them.

[bushido_man96]

I wasn't trying to point out your experiences in particular, Lupin1. You just happened to use the words that got my attention, and I wanted to focus on them.

And then there are the assumptions, like you mention, that are made through hearsay. Just some things that jumped out at me.

[bushido_man96]

I think this has more to do with training methods than anything. If you are shown technique, rep a technique, spar with said technique, and have the underlying principles explained to you, any good art should start to be effective in a few months.

I agree with MP here. What I've seen in my own TKD experience, is the perceived need to really drill and perfect techniques early and often. This is not a bad thing, but it isn't usually done in a way that is beneficial to learning self-defense. I think that from the first class, a student can be shown a technique, work some reps with it, and then be shown ways to apply it, with a partner, with some resistance, to begin learning good self-defense. Sure, some things will be rudimentary, and it may not be smooth, but at least you get started in the right direction.

[Montana]

Montana and Tallgeese,

How long did it take you guys to learn TKD punching to the point where you can reasonably defend yourself in a fight versus a person of the same weight and athleticism?

I hold a 3rd Dan Black Belt in TaeKwonDo issued by the late President and founder of the American Korean Karate Association (long since defunct...thank GOD!), and interestingly enough, I've never so much as taken ONE SINGLE CLASS of tkd!

My experiences with TKD are based on my observations while visiting around 50-100+/- dojangs in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, California, Michigan, Minnesota, Georga, Florida and the UK. Also, I have been a tournament judge and referee (usually center judge/ref) at all-style tournaments since 1978 where I have had the opportunity to watch students AND instructors of TKD compete in sparring, kata and weapons.

As to your question about how long it took me to learn the TKD punch? Based on my observations of TKD over the years, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in learning it from the vast majoprity of people I've seen use it in kata or sparring, as it goes against evwery basic principle that I believe in for proper execution and technique.

That's ok if that's what you want to do, but with 30+ years in the arts I feel I have a better than average grasp of good versus not so good technique.

[FangPwnsAll7]

I know. I hear people saying that TKD sucks all the time. It really makes me angry. There is a good in all forms. Even though I don't even take Tae kwon do, I know that there is nothing bad about it and doesn't deserve to get bashed on. I mean, ATA is a 100% McDojo... and personally I'd never think of taking karate there. No offence though. Any other TKD would be just fine though.

[bushido_man96]

I know. I hear people saying that TKD sucks all the time. It really makes me angry. There is a good in all forms. Even though I don't even take Tae kwon do, I know that there is nothing bad about it and doesn't deserve to get bashed on. I mean, ATA is a 100% McDojo... and personally I'd never think of taking karate there. No offence though. Any other TKD would be just fine though.

I did ATA Taekwondo. Its how I got my start in the MAs. The ATA is a franchise, but that doesn't mean McDojo. You can't relegate every TKD school as a McDojo, just because the ATA is a big organization. The JKA is a big organization, too, but nobody titles it as a McDojo.

[Montana]

I've never been a TKD stylist, brickshooter. Sorry if I mislead you somehow, so take my numbers with a grain of salt here. For me, out of my base art, it was about 3 years or so before I felt comfortable with the idea of real conflict if I recall.

Then we realized (thanks UFC 1) that there was a whole range we hadn't trained in. That was probably a couple more years to feel comfortable with, and that's just to augment self defense skills with ground work. Not being comfortable in a grappling bout.

Bear in mind about the striking numbers though, I'm coming out of a different striking pardigm there. Hand were always up, heavy focus on combinations and movement. Follow up control, ext. You mileage may differ with different arts.

In the end, we usually train, if we train past say brown in most karate based arts and blue in BJJ, we're not training for just self defense anymore. Skills at those levels will greatly improve your odds in a street altercation if that's all you're looking for. Not saying more time won't make you better, just that in MOST altercations you'll have an ADVANTAGE. I bold it because that's all you'll ever get. There are no guarantees. Past those time frames you're really training to prepare yourself against that 1 percent violent offenders who really want to kill you if you're focusing on self defense.

One last point, don't let me mislead you. It's not time in just any art training for whatever reason. The methodology must be sound and realistic in implementation and the mindset focused for ANY art to give you an edge.

That's not really my point. My point is that you can take a person with no training, put him or her in a boxing or BJJ regiment for 6 months. And they can reasonably defend themself with what they learned.

You can't do that with TKD or Karate. At 6 months, the TKD/Karate student is barely grasping its concept. Barely.

Ohhh..I'm going to strongly disagree with this one. Students in my dojo, after about 2 months, have pretty solid punches and kicks. Sure, they aren't perfect, and not as strong as a boxers (keeping in mind that punches are ALL a boxer does and trains with), but for a street fight , which is what we train for, they are just fine.

I've had numerous students that were brought to me by parents that were tired of their son, and yes, daughters too, being physically picked on in school. Those people get more attention from me and put on a fast track to defending themselves, more than the regualr people in class, because they need it..FAST!

[bushido_man96]

I think that is how it should be.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The fact that there are such differences within a styles ought to be enough to conclude that everything depends on how a particular system is taught and the methods of training. Training for the ring or competition will make one good in the ring. Training to deal with social/criminal violence will prepare one for that. The path matters very little if it leads to where one aims to go. TKD, karate etc are just different paths.

[TJ-Jitsu]

The fact that there are such differences within a styles ought to be enough to conclude that everything depends on how a particular system is taught and the methods of training. Training for the ring or competition will make one good in the ring. Training to deal with social/criminal violence will prepare one for that. The path matters very little if it leads to where one aims to go. TKD, karate etc are just different paths.

Meh, not exactly...

Not all styles are created equal, just like not all people are created equal (on the genetic level). Some styles are simply better than others with mounds of supporting evidence....

So the dreaded "street fight" is the last vestige of hope for the common fraudulent martial artist. Disclaimer- I'm not saying that YOU are fraudulent, merely stating that the whole "street fighting" thing is the most overused, overhyped selling point for those people....

The most important thing really-is the quality of sparring one style does. Leaning how to fight against a fully resisting opponent is perhaps the single most effective thing anyone could do.

For example, I can take someone who's boxed for years- give me 5 or 6- but never really sparred. Never mind that they did "boxing" they're not going to know how to move effectively in a fighting situation compared with someone who HAS sparred against fully resisting opponents. The same could be said for a BJJ student who practices for years but never actually trains....

In short, I don't care what name you wish to call whatever it is that you do- as long as its being kept "real" and on the level.

Now why do styles have the reputations they do? In short, your competitive styles have a rep for actually doing full resistance training, therefore they tend to produce very effective fighters. Those that aren't competitive (because they train "for the street") have a habit of NOT training with a fully resisting opponent ("too dangerous") and therefore produce very poor quality fighters. I've trained with, sparred, and fought against many of these people. Street fights and self defense for any competitive fighter are nothing short of a joke, because fighting against a resisting opponent that knows what hes doing is significant more difficult that fighting against a resisting opponent that has absolutely no clue what hes doing.... I mean I've never sweat more in my worst street fight than I did in my lightest warmup