TKD Rant

[bushido_man96]

Lastly, look at ATA. KILLING the name of the art. mcdojo to the max just want money dont care about where the students actually at. making the students therefor, aweful. tbh lol.

I was in the ATA. I began my MA career in the ATA. I also remember failing a black belt testing because I didn't break a board.

Not all ATA schools are created equal. There are those out there that are not very good, and I will not deny that the philosophies of the ATA are what cause it to produce some schools that are questionable in nature. I will say this, though; my time in the ATA wasn't "easy, breezy, Martial Arts time." I worked hard, and earned each rank I tested for. I wasn't the best out there, that's for sure. But I worked hard, and took it seriously.

Yes, there are the flashy kicks that TKD is known for. The flashiest I ever got to really was a jump 360 side kick, which is nothing compared to what is seen at XMA competitions today. Yeah, I do spinning kicks from time to time as well. But, there is a science to throwing and landing a good spinning kick.

I will not deny that the exclusion of hand strikes to the head in TKD competitions is detrimental to the Martial Artist. It is very much so. That's why it is important for instructors to address this in class training time so that students can become accustomed to blocking head shots.

[Montana]

DWx, I meant no disrespect in my post, but rather to attempt to answer the question of the thread, which was why does TKD get disssed.

As to what organizations the various TKD schools belonged to that I've visited around the US and in the UK, I haven't a clue. I drive by, see a sign in the window that says TKD (and karate schools also) and walk in the door to watch a class if possible. I have been doing this, and continue to do so, since around 1975.

The only TKD class I know for sure what organization they belonged to was an ATA (American Taekwondo Association, long defunct now I believe)school in Great Falls, MT (USA). It was operated by a self-promoted "9th Dan Master" that for a time, before he started promoting himself and basically going a little crazy, was my friend.

As for the dojang in the UK I visited, it was in Norwich back in 1998 when I was there for personal reasons. My host and I were driving and I saw a sign on a window, so we stopped and went in for an hour or so. I have no idea what organization they belonged to, nor did I ask because it had no bearing on my wanting to observe a class.

I also went into a Shotokan dojo during practice in Lowenstoft, where I was staying and had the opportunity to practice with them for an evening.

[DWx]

DWx, I meant no disrespect in my post, but rather to attempt to answer the question of the thread, which was why does TKD get disssed.

Oh no worries Montana. I know you didn't mean any disrespect. I guess I sympathize with the OP a lot more than I thought It actually upsets me when I see and hear about "TKD" schools that are little more than martial aerobics as it really does drag our name through the mud. Really is disheartening when you see people practicing what they think is TKD and then outsiders also think that it is TKD when it has nothing to do with the core principles and methodology of the style. So heh I guess this in part an answer to the OP in that yeah we get a really sucky rep all because these schools jump on the bandwagon and borrow the name.

I only ask of organizations as its a good indicator of what style. Kinda synonymous with the idea of a ryu in Karate. If you belong to the WTF, for example, you'll look drastically different to an ITF practitioner who looks different from a TKD International practitioner.

I was just wondering on the UK school to see whether it was somewhere I knew or not or if it was somewhere I could sneakily go and have a look at.

Actually my sister is looking at applying to uni in Norwich and was going to check out the TKD schools there so that doesn't bode too well for her. Having said that, it is actually very rare to have custom built dojos/dojangs in the UK. It tends to be the McDojo's that can afford it.

[ninjanurse]

The question is basically, "Why does TKD get bashed so often as being ineffective?"

There are a variety of reasons TKD gets bashed all of the time.

Namely:

1. Black belts as young as 6 years old (I've seen them). To other tradition martial artists, this is a joke! It makes no difference if you label them as "Junior Black Belts...as black belt is a black belt.

2. Emphasis on high, flashy kicks which if they connect, are great, if not, they leave the TKD practioner HIGHLY vulnerable and off balance.

3. Emphasis on kicks, little on hand techniques

4. Literally no grappling techsniques.

5. No defenses against weapons, or weapon usage taught.

6. Break a board, get a belt testing mentality. Commercial schools especially are typically geared towards easy belt tests to retain students. (this is where the term McDojo origionated I believe)

As a TKD practitioner I agree with you...an image that I am trying to change!

[brickshooter]

If I was the emperor of the TKD universe, the 1st thing that I'd do is to take all my chief instructors and make them white belts, then take them down to the Kyokushin or Shotokan (Shorin, Goju etc.) hombu dojo and have them relearn all their hand strikes & punches, and stances.

NASCAR uniforms, toddler blackbelts, and poor instructors damage TKD. But the first thing that I would fix with TDK is what is listed above.

[MickPD82]

I’m a white belt - training in Taekwondo in an ATA school with my 5 year old kid. I’m 5’10” and at a pretty soft 185, I’m in fairly lousy shape (compared to what I used to be when I ran 4 miles a day minimum.) My flexibility is crap (always has been.) And my cardio is crap too anymore (I’ve only recently started running again.) I still lift though, so I’m doing okay strength-wise... but that’s all I’ve got going for me! I’m no martial arts expert and I’ve never had a black belt in anything, but I’m familiar with “fighting” (in various forms.) Here’s my background if you wanna know... if you don’t, just read the last two paragraphs!

Nine years of wresting in school. My wife and kids are all “Dixie” - but daddy was born and raised in Iowa. When I was a kid my heroes were Batman, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Dan Gable. I think the Hawkeye state tends to take wrestling a little more seriously than most (from what I’ve seen.) And wresting was just about as big as football in my hometown. (Our football program routinely sucked, but our wrestling program was always good.) I was just an average wrestler as a kid - but I’m much better than average if anyone were to get me on the ground.

So, I enlisted in the Army (airborne infantry) out of high school, and I boxed for about 8 months as soon as I got out of IET. As I recall, they taught you the basics for either two or four weeks (can’t remember) then you “qualify” to sign up to fight in “smokers” (three 1-minute-round fights.) After you qualify to fight, you’re on your own - it’s up to you to train yourself... which mostly consisted of hitting bags, lifting weights, and looking for sparring partners. I can tell you all my vast “technique” disappeared when I first got in the ring - it became: hit him as hard and as often as you can. It was enough to win my first two by decision, but it was luck, I wasn’t really any better than the other guys. The very next week after my second fight - a guy I didn’t get along with broke two of my ribs “sparring.” After riding a PT profile for a couple months, I didn’t really feel like boxing anymore after that. Mostly, I think I just learned how to throw a decent punch and to not be so afraid to get hit in the face.

Then I did Kung Fu (Shaolin) for a little over a year. My instructor had his own small school in Fayetteville, was prior service himself, and took his “martial art” very seriously. We got along pretty good - and even though I was routinely getting my rear kicked - and it was fun for a while. As I got to know him better, I realized what an arrogant and mean guy he was - hardly what I had in mind of the cool and collected ninja warrior spirit sort of fella. I never came clean with him, but he’s the reason I quit. The only reason. This “Kung Fu Warrior” was really just an immature little kid who happened to be pushing 40 and who thought he was pretty tough. He was a total jerk (to put it mildly) if you offended him. So, I left before that happened to me. Looking back, I think I got a fairly decent grasp of the very basics of how the more “disciplined” martial arts work... striking and blocking technique(s) - from forms (or whatever you want to call it) and some medium-to-full contact sparring. I don’t mean I really learned a whole lot about Kung Fu - more how the whole “business” of these types of martial arts studios works... if you know what I mean.

Next I trained with an SF buddy I’d gone to PLDC with who started up a little Judo & Jui-Jitsu club (he initially started it right there on Fort Bragg.) He was MUCH cooler than the Kung Fu Warrior -this guy had it together (mentally and emotionally I mean.) And I was already very comfortable on the mats having wrestled for so many years. Our training was pretty... to the point (for lack of anything better.) I was only able to do it for about nine months, but I think I got fairly decent at the basic throws, locks, and REALLY good (if I don’t say so myself) at chokes.

Then came September 11th. That pretty well changed a bunch of stuff for me (and our country of course.)

After three tours in the combat zone(s) - my whole outlook on fighting changed. Fighting used to be (for me) some vague idea about being a “tough-guy” and all that jazz. Well, now I can say that I know tough-guys who (literally) crapped their pants when they got in a real fight. And I don’t hold it against them at all... I threw up all over myself the night after I first killed someone (no pooping, but I’m certainly no tough guy either.) Several guys in my unit are/were killers too - some are/were close friends of mine, some were just buddies in my unit, and a few of them I didn’t get along with at all (and hope to God I never see those nut-jobs again.) We all had different - and similar - reactions to all the violence. And I guess we all find ways to deal as the years go by.

But, the truth is, seeing and participating in THAT kind of fighting made all martial arts look pretty tame to me. Pretty much any “extreme” sport - no matter how “dangerous” - looks either tame or just plain stupid to me actually. And I doubt I’ll ever think anybody with any belt or any kind of MMA background is any “tougher” than anybody else ever again. No offense to anyone who loves martial arts and has dedicated a good portion of their lives to it - honestly - I certainly respect all the discipline and the training many people put into it... I just don’t give a crap about which style is better than another - because from my perspective - none of them count for anything if you’re up against someone who wants to kill you.

Anyway. Now, I’m married, with little kids, and a normal job. It’s great. Thank God (for real) that I’ve seen the evil of war up close and personal - I can truly appreciate my wife, my family, and the beauty of a peaceful and simple life. Most people here in America don’t know how blessed they are. I love watching co-workers and friends get mad at each other over and fight about the silliest stuff. It’s beautiful to have such simple “concerns.” I do worry that the violence I’ve done will come back on my family sometimes... so I try to keep a low profile.... and my guard is always up. Always.

I gotta tell you though, now that I’ve started doing martial arts again, I have to say (so far) that I love watching our oldest in Taekwondo... having SO much fun! And really learning some pretty good stuff! They’ve got lot’s about how to handle and avoid bullies and situational-type and/or principle-based kind of stuff. I’m all about it. The guy who owns the studio is a family guy and is great - and I mean GREAT with kids. He gives us grown-ups a decent workout too. And I truly find it funny - reading from all these “pros” who bash on taekwondo (ATA in particular.) McDojo indeed!

Anyway. I’m really looking forward to all of my kids getting their black belts in the ATA - maybe when they’re a little older I’ll sign them up for some jiu-jitsu type of mat-work (my boy’s will wrestle young of course.) But, I’m pretty happy so far with what I’ve been seeing coming out of this Taekwondo studio! I like what I've been reading so far on these forums (there's a lot of garbage ones out there.) So, I'm picking this one for my online martial arts discussion(s) until further notice! And I plan on learning more and sharing updates on how me and my family are progressing in our chosen martial art!

Peace.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing your history with us, Mick. I'm a former ATA black belt and instructor, so I can relate to your ATA experiences somewhat, although the organisation has changed quite a bit since I was there.

Welcome to the Forums, as well. Look forward to seeing you around.

[Isshin-Vegg]

I've never studied TKD, but when I was younger (even though I'm 16) I was one of those people who would bash TKD just because it wasn't karate. But I have come to realize TKD and how effective it is, and I don't know how people can bash TKD on the YouTube videos because the more I watch them the more I gain respect for the style. I mean I know this isn't the best way to gain a respect for a style, but most of respect I've gained through TKD fighters is through MMA. I see TKD black belts to be very effective in a cage, like Anthony Pettis and last TUF season's Chris Cope are both pretty good fighters.

I think TKD deserves more credit too because their inventiveness with kicks are amazing, they have high speed and power, and I watched this video where 4 styles through kicks at a bag (even though the karate one through a dumb front kick -.-) and the TKD won by a landslide with a round kick, which I find to similar to Karate's.

I don't know if this helped, but as Einstein said "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

[brickshooter]

The truth is that kicking is the most difficult skill to learn. And that is what TKD gives. Boxing is one of the easiet skill to learn. Grappling is also incredibly innate.

Hence, the TKD guys are among those who can make the transition to MMA the easiest.

[Montana]

The truth is that kicking is the most difficult skill to learn. And that is what TKD gives. Boxing is one of the easiet skill to learn. Grappling is also incredibly innate.

Hence, the TKD guys are among those who can make the transition to MMA the easiest.

You're kidding, right?

Boxing and grappling are easy to learn?

Im sorry, but I'm going to 100% disagree with that statement.