Kyokushin Karate

[bushido_man96]

Given a chance, I would give it a try.

Kyokushin is very similar to ITF TKD but its continuus sparring and thigh kicks and knees and elbows are allowed.

Sosai was Korean and His Martial Arts Lineage (from some sources) depicts training in Chinese Kenpo which is also the source of some of the Korean Martial Arts too

Yes, I do recall this. I didn't know he trained Chinese Kempo, though. I do recall seeing a picture in one of my books of Oyama having a meeting with Choi, in which I think Choi was trying to "recruit" him to the ITF.

[Kuma]

Yes, I do recall this. I didn't know he trained Chinese Kempo, though. I do recall seeing a picture in one of my books of Oyama having a meeting with Choi, in which I think Choi was trying to "recruit" him to the ITF.

It's difficult to verify but there are some sources claiming he learned Southern Chinese Kempo off of one of his father's employees at a young age. It was for less than six years and spanned from when was 9 to 15 before he left for Japan. Goju Ryu is perhaps the most influential part of Kyokushin, you can see a heavy influence in all aspects of it, not surprising since Oyama was awarded his hachidan in Goju Ryu by Gogen Yamaguchi.

Choi was actually trying to recruit Oyama and his whole organization into the ITF, but he underestimated how much Oyama loved Japan and how he had basically given up his Korean roots to become Japanese. Oyama obviously wasn't going to give up his established organization to a brand new one, much less play second fiddle to someone else, so he declined.

[brickshooter]

Yes, I do recall this. I didn't know he trained Chinese Kempo, though. I do recall seeing a picture in one of my books of Oyama having a meeting with Choi, in which I think Choi was trying to "recruit" him to the ITF.

It's difficult to verify but there are some sources claiming he learned Southern Chinese Kempo off of one of his father's employees at a young age. It was for less than six years and spanned from when was 9 to 15 before he left for Japan. Goju Ryu is perhaps the most influential part of Kyokushin, you can see a heavy influence in all aspects of it, not surprising since Oyama was awarded his hachidan in Goju Ryu by Gogen Yamaguchi.

Choi was actually trying to recruit Oyama and his whole organization into the ITF, but he underestimated how much Oyama loved Japan and how he had basically given up his Korean roots to become Japanese. Oyama obviously wasn't going to give up his established organization to a brand new one, much less play second fiddle to someone else, so he declined.

Oyama may have originate with Goju, but modern Kyukoshin looks more to me like a cross between MThai and TKD. When visiting their dojos, one could even notice that Kyokushin and TKD uses the same sparing rules except for the added leg kicks.

[UselessDave]

Yes, I do recall this. I didn't know he trained Chinese Kempo, though. I do recall seeing a picture in one of my books of Oyama having a meeting with Choi, in which I think Choi was trying to "recruit" him to the ITF.

It's difficult to verify but there are some sources claiming he learned Southern Chinese Kempo off of one of his father's employees at a young age. It was for less than six years and spanned from when was 9 to 15 before he left for Japan. Goju Ryu is perhaps the most influential part of Kyokushin, you can see a heavy influence in all aspects of it, not surprising since Oyama was awarded his hachidan in Goju Ryu by Gogen Yamaguchi.

Choi was actually trying to recruit Oyama and his whole organization into the ITF, but he underestimated how much Oyama loved Japan and how he had basically given up his Korean roots to become Japanese. Oyama obviously wasn't going to give up his established organization to a brand new one, much less play second fiddle to someone else, so he declined.

Oyama may have originate with Goju, but modern Kyukoshin looks more to me like a cross between MThai and TKD. When visiting their dojos, one could even notice that Kyokushin and TKD uses the same sparing rules except for the added leg kicks.

But there's other than just Kumite. I don't see it being too similar with Muay Thai. The kicks are different and the rules anyways. Those shin blocks and low kicks sure.

[Kuma]

Oyama may have originate with Goju, but modern Kyukoshin looks more to me like a cross between MThai and TKD. When visiting their dojos, one could even notice that Kyokushin and TKD uses the same sparing rules except for the added leg kicks.

A basic overview of Goju Ryu strategy is to close with the opponent, fighting up close and personal, disrupting their balance, and get them to a vulnerable position where you can finish them off. Kyokushin shares this same philosophy as well as emphasizing the point and circle (hence our symbol) and a lot of circular motion in its system (i.e. mawashi uke). Many students took that idea and ran with it, hence the creation of both Ashihara and Enshin, but both are also more geared towards knockdown fighting. Tensho kata is also considered the most important kata for a Kyokushin student. Kyokushin still remains a traditional system just with the added knockdown fighting. As for the TKD part, since TKD came from karate that's no surprise. The spinning kicks and flashier kicks came from a variety of different sources.

Kyokushin never had low kicks until they faced the Thai fighters and discovered how powerful they were, hence why they became a big part of their fight game. They may have existed earlier as Goju Ryu does include gedan mawashi geri in its curriculum from my experience, but there's not a lot of evidence supporting it in any of Oyama's books. It could have been a "secret technique" of his that he didn't want to become well known though, so it's tough to say.

Kyokushin knockdown fighting is very different from Tae Kwon Do sparring. Unlike TKD, there is no protective gear whatsoever allowed in open knockdown fighting. You can probably get away with a mouthpiece and a cup, and that's about it. While TKD only allows punches to the chest protector, in Kyokushin the only place you are not allowed to punch or strike (e.g. elbows, ridge hands, and palm strikes) is the head itself. You will have guys punching shoulders to weaken arms, the obliques to wear their opponents down, and in some cases a good fighter can pull off upper body strikes to their opponent's legs. As for kicking, Kyokushin also incorporates knee strikes which can be anywhere on the body, and allows foot sweeps to knock your opponent down.

The scoring system is also different. While TKD fights for as many points as they can get, knockdown fighting is for ippon, or a full point win. You can only achieve this by knocking your opponent down for more than 3 seconds or by them verbally quitting. If you knock them down but they get up within the three seconds or if you sweep them, you only get waza-ari, a half point. You obviously need a full point to win, so you need to do that twice in one round to win. If it comes down to a decision, there is no points system so it goes to the fighter with superior skill and spirit. If that's still undecided, then it goes to the lighter of the two.

Tae Kwon Do is a good foundation for knockdown fighting but just TKD alone will not help you win a knockdown tournament. Even Thai boxers have had lots of trouble competing in knockdown fighting, as it is a very different ruleset.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the added info on Oyama and Choi, Kuma. Thanks for the last post as well, breaking down differences between the knockdown rule set and the Olympic style of TKD.

[evergrey]

OSU, do not forget the Shotokan influence! And he studied in Judo and Aiki-Jutsu as well. I wouldn't call TKD an influence on Kyokushin at all, to be honest.

Anyway, I absolutely love Kyokushin. It is my passion! And it still has a great reputation, though a lot of people don't realize that the no punches to the head thing is not always the case outside of tournaments.

The politics are lame. That's why things like Kyokushin4life exist now... a lot of us are tired of the politics and the games and old rivalries and grudges. Thanks to the internet, us subversive types are able to communicate and work together cross-faction. Muahahahahaaaaaaa! *cough cough*

OSU

[Dobbersky]

The One thing I don't like about some Kyokushin Karateka, they are so Kyokushin, they don't acknowledge its syblings Ashihara Karate and Enshin, Karate, although I must say there is a presence on Kyokushin4Life forum, who some are posters on both.

When I post I mention Knockdown Karate and specify Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin and Daido Juku, but come on Kyokushin Karateka why do you not do the same?

[bushido_man96]

I wouldn't call TKD an influence on Kyokushin at all, to be honest.

I don't think anyone claimed TKD had an influence on Kyokushin. I'm not sure when Kyokushin came on the scene exactly, but it must not have been too long after TKD became formally established, as Gen. Choi had an interest in trying to get Oyama involved with TKD. Mainly, I think he was trying to capitalize on Oyama's popularity and student base.

[Kuma]

The One thing I don't like about some Kyokushin Karateka, they are so Kyokushin, they don't acknowledge its syblings Ashihara Karate and Enshin, Karate, although I must say there is a presence on Kyokushin4Life forum, who some are posters on both.

When I post I mention Knockdown Karate and specify Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin and Daido Juku, but come on Kyokushin Karateka why do you not do the same?

It depends on whatever we're talking about. I honestly don't see this as an issue, as the knockdown community is quite small so we all have to band together as much as we can.