Literal Kata!!

[bushido_man96]

I agree with Sojobo, in that in-depth understanding of any given kata requires in-depth understanding of the Art itself.

In a sense, aren't they one and the same?

Only if the Art is strongly built upon kata

Some schools may use kata simply as a means to delevop coordination, basic techiques and movement.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy. But in the system I am in, kata is the heart of karate.

This is really the only experience I've had with forms training. Its a testing requirement, and it teaches various ways to move and do techniques. I've never had any applications taught or practiced from the forms. We have always done that through one-steps, sparring, and some self-defense work. However, over time, I have come to recognize some parts of the forms that can have applicable self-defense.

[yamesu]

I agree with Sojobo, in that in-depth understanding of any given kata requires in-depth understanding of the Art itself.

In a sense, aren't they one and the same?

Only if the Art is strongly built upon kata

Some schools may use kata simply as a means to delevop coordination, basic techiques and movement.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy. But in the system I am in, kata is the heart of karate.

Totally agree with you on the ethos that Kata IS the heart of Karate

Agreed, without kata it is basially just kickboxing with different stances

[Ueshirokarate]

I agree with Sojobo, in that in-depth understanding of any given kata requires in-depth understanding of the Art itself.

In a sense, aren't they one and the same?

Only if the Art is strongly built upon kata

Some schools may use kata simply as a means to delevop coordination, basic techiques and movement.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy. But in the system I am in, kata is the heart of karate.

This is really the only experience I've had with forms training. Its a testing requirement, and it teaches various ways to move and do techniques. I've never had any applications taught or practiced from the forms. We have always done that through one-steps, sparring, and some self-defense work. However, over time, I have come to recognize some parts of the forms that can have applicable self-defense.

That's unfortunate, but not uncommon. So many people dismiss kata without fully understanding what it is, etc. The Okinawans who developed "karate" spend a great deal of time focusing on kata. Some spend a lifetime trying to master just one. It wasn't uncommon for the junior students to spend two or three years training just Naihanchi Shodan.

Kata is basically a method to impart karate into you. You do it over and over and over again so that when you need to move in a fight, you just do (musihn).

[DWx]

I agree with Sojobo, in that in-depth understanding of any given kata requires in-depth understanding of the Art itself.

In a sense, aren't they one and the same?

Only if the Art is strongly built upon kata

Some schools may use kata simply as a means to delevop coordination, basic techiques and movement.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy. But in the system I am in, kata is the heart of karate.

This is really the only experience I've had with forms training. Its a testing requirement, and it teaches various ways to move and do techniques. I've never had any applications taught or practiced from the forms. We have always done that through one-steps, sparring, and some self-defense work. However, over time, I have come to recognize some parts of the forms that can have applicable self-defense.

That's unfortunate, but not uncommon. So many people dismiss kata without fully understanding what it is, etc. The Okinawans who developed "karate" spend a great deal of time focusing on kata. Some spend a lifetime trying to master just one. It wasn't uncommon for the junior students to spend two or three years training just Naihanchi Shodan.

Kata is basically a method to impart karate into you. You do it over and over and over again so that when you need to move in a fight, you just do (musihn).

I think it just depends on the school/system. Forms really don't make up a big part in TKD systems. Its not really a case of us dismissing them as such, we just take a different approach to them. We're not trying to unlock extra moves and applications and exploring them through bunkai because our forms were specifically created for the system and were created a little superficial. "Literal" to use that term.

Kata is basically a method to impart karate into you. You do it over and over and over again so that when you need to move in a fight, you just do (musihn).

In TKD, we fight over and over again so in a fight, well we just do it.

[brickshooter]

As much as I advocate Kata for Karate, sometimes I wonder whether TKD should just scrap Kata altogether.

I often speak to 4th and 5th dan TKD grades, and their understanding of Kata is roughly the same as a 1st dan. And their attitude is that the intent of Kata is for "tradition" only. To me that's a horrible waste of time. They should scrap it or adopt free fighting Katas like what Ashihara Karate did.

[Ueshirokarate]

I think it just depends on the school/system. Forms really don't make up a big part in TKD systems. Its not really a case of us dismissing them as such, we just take a different approach to them. We're not trying to unlock extra moves and applications and exploring them through bunkai because our forms were specifically created for the system and were created a little superficial. "Literal" to use that term.

In TKD, we fight over and over again so in a fight, well we just do it.

While similar, I don't consider TKD karate, to me TKD is TKD a separate and distinct art from karate. Not that one is better than the other, but all martial arts have their own training methods and to me, karate (well at least Okinawan karate) and kata are inseparable.

[bushido_man96]

As much as I advocate Kata for Karate, sometimes I wonder whether TKD should just scrap Kata altogether.

I often speak to 4th and 5th dan TKD grades, and their understanding of Kata is roughly the same as a 1st dan. And their attitude is that the intent of Kata is for "tradition" only. To me that's a horrible waste of time. They should scrap it or adopt free fighting Katas like what Ashihara Karate did.

I feel this way from time to time with the ITF forms I do now. I do enjoy practicing the techniques, and trying to really make a form come together with power and speed. I also liked competing in forms.

The ATA forms are geared towards technique advancement, even at the higher black belt levels. In the colored belt ranks, you can see a clear progression in the kicking techniques and hand strikes that are learned at each level. Even the black belt levels have advanced kicking combinations and jumping techniques and combinations. No bunkai, per se, but still learning how to move the body and put techniques together in different combinations.

[Shotoseidoka]

To borrow a quote from my friend Forrest...'Kata is as kata does'. I think Brickshooter is the one with a real answer here. All students should start out with a simple bunkai, meaning a block is a block, a punch is a punch. However the longer you train, the more you research, and explore the basic movement give way to more effective techniques. Patrick McCarthy has done some intense research on the original concepts of kata which show that there was a lot more tuite used than actual strikes and blocks. Some of his students posted a video on YouTube called Naihanchi 360. For those who only know their dojo and nothing else this may be a hard concept to understand. My suggestion is to do a lot of reading and research, attend any martial arts seminar/training camp you can and while you are there leave your thoughts and beliefs at the door so that you can fully take in what you are learning.

[evergrey]

Wait, no bunkaiception?

We have to go deeper! It is actually a strike!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

In all seriousness, Taikyoku Sono Ichi probably doesn't have a whole lot of meanings... but I would likely be corrected even on that.

[Kuma]

The only kata I've ever seen that could be called "literal" kata in this sense was kata in Enshin and Ashihara.

Enshin green belt kata:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9112972018247431046

Application of Enshin green belt kata:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9112972018247431046#docid=-783968795000940108

Enshin and Ashihara actually has gotten rid of the traditional kata entirely.