Rediscovering how to use kata moves in a fight.

[Ueshirokarate]

Ueshirokarate - can I ask, do you run these types of things past your instructor?

I think honoluludesktop mentioned about the importance of Kumite as part of "realising" kata. How is this done at your club?

Not trying to de-rail your thread, but you seem to be searching for answers / re-assurances that frankly, you should be getting from your Karate school not from on line forums.

Sojobo

I have been fortunate enough to train the pinan katas under many, many instructors. I'd like to think I have a pretty advanced understanding of them for my style, as I have focused, studied and practiced them for a long time. I am more seeking the common threads between all of the styles that teach them. The history of karate is fascinating and no one can really tell you exactly how Itosu would perform them or apply the techniques. We don't even know if they came from a mother kata, or were a completely original creation from Itosu. We do know that all the schools that teach them today trace their lineage back to Itosu.

[sojobo]

So... how is it done at your club?

Researching kata is easy these days (well if you know how to navigate through the tons of crud on the internet) - but "realising" kata is an entirely different thing.

Weren't your earlier posts about understanding how others made kata work for them?

Sojobo

[Wastelander]

Well, in the interest of answering your question as best I can now that we have a more specific technique to discuss I'll go ahead and put in what I know. In Shuri-Ryu we did not practice the Pinan kata at all, so I only have the Shorin-Ryu (Shorinkan) version to go off of. We also perform the last four movements in Pinan Nidan as gedan shuto uke in neko ashi dachi, and we usually use them as deflecting and catching a kick, then twisting the ankle to dislocate it or cause the attacker to fall to avoid the dislocation. My instructor also has us throw a kick to the leg or groin because neko ashi dachi easily facilitates the use of a front leg kick and "you might as well since you have his groin opened up" and he is a big proponent of kicking low while entering.

If we were to get into Naihanchi I could go a little further because I have learned Naihanchi Sho in both Shuri-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu.

[Ueshirokarate]

So... how is it done at your club?

Researching kata is easy these days (well if you know how to navigate through the tons of crud on the internet) - but "realising" kata is an entirely different thing.

Weren't your earlier posts about understanding how others made kata work for them?

Sojobo

Watching a kata online is not the same as discussing it with a practitioner of another style. For example, the videos I have seen showing the last four moves of Wado's Pinan Nidan look to me as they are also a uke as in Matsubayashi with a different body movement and slightly different hand positioning and not a strike. I would have never know the strike aspect if we hadn't discussed them.

No, my posts throughout this thread have only been toward a desire to discuss individual techniques in the pinans and how to apply them in a fight. I really don't have interest in how others made kata work for them, what their philosophy of why kata is important, etc.

[sojobo]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

Well, in the interest of answering your question as best I can now that we have a more specific technique to discuss I'll go ahead and put in what I know. In Shuri-Ryu we did not practice the Pinan kata at all, so I only have the Shorin-Ryu (Shorinkan) version to go off of. We also perform the last four movements in Pinan Nidan as gedan shuto uke in neko ashi dachi, and we usually use them as deflecting and catching a kick, then twisting the ankle to dislocate it or cause the attacker to fall to avoid the dislocation. My instructor also has us throw a kick to the leg or groin because neko ashi dachi easily facilitates the use of a front leg kick and "you might as well since you have his groin opened up" and he is a big proponent of kicking low while entering.

If we were to get into Naihanchi I could go a little further because I have learned Naihanchi Sho in both Shuri-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu.

Matsubayashi is Shoshin Nagamine's version of Shorin Ryu and what you describe sounds pretty identical. Why don't we start another thread on Naihanchi Sho (it is much more universal than the other to Naihanchi katas)?

[Ueshirokarate]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.

[sojobo]

Watching a kata online is not the same as discussing it with a practitioner of another style. For example, the videos I have seen showing the last four moves of Wado's Pinan Nidan look to me as they are also a uke as in Matsubayashi with a different body movement and slightly different hand positioning and not a strike. I would have never know the strike aspect if we hadn't discussed them.

Well, I never said it was a strike either - that is one option.

In Wado pinan however (whether block or strike), it is done a tsuki (thrust) not a harrai (sweeping) block.

sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

Well, I never said it was a strike either - that is one option.

In Wado pinan however (whether block or strike), it is done a tsuki (thrust) not a harrai (sweeping) block.

sojobo

I have always understood all thrusts to be strikes, some are blocking strikes but always strikes. Can you tell me more about it?

[sojobo]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.

If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced.

I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion.

sojobo