Rediscovering how to use kata moves in a fight.

[Ueshirokarate]

The problem is the diversity of the art – and the differences in approach between styles.

IMO you are asking too big a question, I,m not sure you will get very clear answers.

Take my style (Wado-ryu) for example, we do not utilise the process of “Bunkai”, but that doesn’t mean to say that the techniques that are found within Pinan nidan have no combative function – far from it. However, to grease the wheels of the thread – let’s try this:

In our Kata pinan Nidan – the last 4 moves are demonstrated in the kata as nukite strikes in shiko-dachi this. In application however this represents an exercise in Irimi and the opening of the body.

This action itself has a number of possibilities. On an “omote” level the leading arm deflects an incoming punch by sliding along the punch as it is travelling toward its target. The key to making it work is the rotation of the body (double moment) at the point of performing the block.

This is however still rudimentary, as under the surface – it is the entire body movement that is more useful, when combined with correct “ma-ai” (distance) “sen” (timing) and combative processes such as “Noru”)(riding techniques) etc. When you get to this level – you’ll be cooking on gas!!

Is this more what you are after?

Sojobo.

Exactly what I was looking for, domo. I chose the Pinans, since they and perhaps Naihanchi Sho are the most ubiquitous katas amongst the various styles of karte (obviously not in some styles). In Matsubayashi, the last four moves of Pinan Nidan are all gedan shuto yoko barai uke (lower sideward knife hand slashing block) in cat stance (neko ashi dachi). Can we conclude that this sequence of four is all about moving to the side of an attacker, deflecting their strike and perhaps giving them a knife hand strike? Would anyone from another style comment to the contrary?

[sojobo]

Can we conclude that this sequence of four is all about moving to the side of an attacker, deflecting their strike and perhaps giving them a knife hand strike?

Not really, or not in Wado-ryu at least. We do not move to the side - rather, we avoid the attack down the centre line by rotating the body. Also, the arms are performing "tsuki" rather than "uke" or "uchi".

It is a very subtle.

As an aside, I don't think you ever "conclude" what a sequence is all about as that implies limiting yourself.

sojobo

[honoluludesktop]

Shojobo, How do you conceptualize the movement between the pair of nukite strikes? Do you visualize an opponent, or practice the movement as a irimi drill? I do the latter, and use the pause between the strikes as a momentary opportunity to reset subject to the situation.

In blocking exercises, I often low block by noru, in the manner of the nukite, but with my fist closed, and from a forward stance. In kumite, I have yet to encounter this movement.

[Ueshirokarate]

Can we conclude that this sequence of four is all about moving to the side of an attacker, deflecting their strike and perhaps giving them a knife hand strike?

Not really, or not in Wado-ryu at least. We do not move to the side - rather, we avoid the attack down the centre line by rotating the body. Also, the arms are performing "tsuki" rather than "uke" or "uchi".

It is a very subtle.

As an aside, I don't think you ever "conclude" what a sequence is all about as that implies limiting yourself.

sojobo

Interesting. The Matsubayashi version suggests that you are deflecting kicks:

[sojobo]

Shojobo, How do you conceptualize the movement between the pair of nukite strikes? Do you visualize an opponent, or practice the movement as a irimi drill? I do the latter, and use the pause between the strikes as a momentary opportunity to reset subject to the situation.

In blocking exercises, I often low block by noru, in the manner of the nukite, but with my fist closed, and from a forward stance. In kumite, I have yet to encounter this movement.

Yes, I approach the interval section as an exercise in Irimi. Of course there isn't a pause there as such because the intent is continuous but I know what you mean about re-evaluating Ma-ai.

And Yes - I also know what you mean about the using it in Kumite - which is why I think it is as educational process at this level rather than a combative one.

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Can we conclude that this sequence of four is all about moving to the side of an attacker, deflecting their strike and perhaps giving them a knife hand strike?

Not really, or not in Wado-ryu at least. We do not move to the side - rather, we avoid the attack down the centre line by rotating the body. Also, the arms are performing "tsuki" rather than "uke" or "uchi".

It is a very subtle.

As an aside, I don't think you ever "conclude" what a sequence is all about as that implies limiting yourself.

sojobo

Interesting. The Matsubayashi version suggests that you are deflecting kicks:

As I mentioned earlier - you'll be here all day if you compare why each style does what.

It's the principles underneath that are more important than the technique(s).

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

As I mentioned earlier - you'll be here all day if you compare why each style does what.

It's the principles underneath that are more important than the technique(s).

Sojobo

So what do you think are the principles in this sequence? By the way, I don't mind spending a lot of time comparing styles.

[sojobo]

I did my best to explain the principles behind the the wado version.

You mentioned in you earlier post about how your school teaches it as a block (using the arm in shuto), against a kick but importantly there is a shift off the line of attack.

Blocking kicks with arms is not always a great thing to do (legs are much stronger than arms), so the shift off the line makes the technique much more feasible. The principle this teaches you is the use of good tai-sabaki in conjuction with co-ordinating it with a block.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

I did my best to explain the principles behind the the wado version.

You mentioned in you earlier post about how your school teaches it as a block (using the arm in shuto), against a kick but importantly there is a shift off the line of attack.

Blocking kicks with arms is not always a great thing to do (legs are much stronger than arms), so the shift off the line makes the technique much more feasible. The principle this teaches you is the use of good tai-sabaki in conjuction with co-ordinating it with a block.

Sojobo

Wado's is also a lower strike, correct? Where would you be aiming if you were facing a real opponent with the strike?

Personally I believe the technique would work best to grab an opponents leg after they threw a kick and were dumb enough to keep it there too long.

[sojobo]

I did my best to explain the principles behind the the wado version.

You mentioned in you earlier post about how your school teaches it as a block (using the arm in shuto), against a kick but importantly there is a shift off the line of attack.

Blocking kicks with arms is not always a great thing to do (legs are much stronger than arms), so the shift off the line makes the technique much more feasible. The principle this teaches you is the use of good tai-sabaki in conjuction with co-ordinating it with a block.

Sojobo

Wado's is also a lower strike, correct? Where would you be aiming if you were facing a real opponent with the strike?

Personally I believe the technique would work best to grab an opponents leg after they threw a kick and were dumb enough to keep it there too long.

Ueshirokarate - can I ask, do you run these types of things past your instructor?

I think honoluludesktop mentioned about the importance of Kumite as part of "realising" kata. How is this done at your club?

Not trying to de-rail your thread, but you seem to be searching for answers / re-assurances that frankly, you should be getting from your Karate school not from on line forums.

Sojobo