Rediscovering how to use kata moves in a fight.

[honoluludesktop]

I have always understood all thrusts to be strikes, some are blocking strikes but always strikes. Can you tell me more about it?

He did, read the references to noru.

[Wastelander]

Well, in the interest of answering your question as best I can now that we have a more specific technique to discuss I'll go ahead and put in what I know. In Shuri-Ryu we did not practice the Pinan kata at all, so I only have the Shorin-Ryu (Shorinkan) version to go off of. We also perform the last four movements in Pinan Nidan as gedan shuto uke in neko ashi dachi, and we usually use them as deflecting and catching a kick, then twisting the ankle to dislocate it or cause the attacker to fall to avoid the dislocation. My instructor also has us throw a kick to the leg or groin because neko ashi dachi easily facilitates the use of a front leg kick and "you might as well since you have his groin opened up" and he is a big proponent of kicking low while entering.

If we were to get into Naihanchi I could go a little further because I have learned Naihanchi Sho in both Shuri-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu.

Matsubayashi is Shoshin Nagamine's version of Shorin Ryu and what you describe sounds pretty identical. Why don't we start another thread on Naihanchi Sho (it is much more universal than the other to Naihanchi katas)?

Indeed, so I don't suspect that much of what I know from the Pinan kata will vary from what you know. Although I do always like talking about Naihanchi, I don't think we necessarily need a separate topic for Naihanchi--that would just start filling up the forum if we did a new topic for every kata we want to discuss. I should add that I think the idea of cataloging all of the different applications that people can think of is interesting, just so long as we aren't seeking one, single application for every movement.

[Ueshirokarate]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.

If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced.

I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion.

sojobo

. If you have documentation that disproves what I said in the last post, please share it with me. I am a voracious reader on karate's history and am not aware of anything other than quoted opinions on Itosu's creation of the pinan's. One school stating that they are the chanan kata broken down into five seperate kata's, the other school stating he adopted techniques he knew from elsewhere and softened them for younger students. That said, I do hope we can continue the dialogue thus far, keep the thread on track and back to technical application of the pinans to real world fighting.

[sojobo]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.

If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced.

I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion.

sojobo

. If you have documentation that disproves what I said in the last post, please share it with me. I am a voracious reader on karate's history and am not aware of anything other than quoted opinions on Itosu's creation of the pinan's. One school stating that they are the chanan kata broken down into five seperate kata's, the other school stating he adopted techniques he knew from elsewhere and softened them for younger students. That said, I do hope we can continue the dialogue thus far, keep the thread on track and back to technical application of the pinans to real world fighting.

I'll PM you some details so as to keep this thread on the straight and narrow.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

Itosu is famed for creating the pinan kata for children’s schools, so that karate could be safely and easily incorporated into the school systems physical educational programme.

It is fairly well documented that the pinans - broadly speaking - are bite sized pieces of Kushanku.

Sojobo

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.

If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced.

I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion.

sojobo

. If you have documentation that disproves what I said in the last post, please share it with me. I am a voracious reader on karate's history and am not aware of anything other than quoted opinions on Itosu's creation of the pinan's. One school stating that they are the chanan kata broken down into five seperate kata's, the other school stating he adopted techniques he knew from elsewhere and softened them for younger students. That said, I do hope we can continue the dialogue thus far, keep the thread on track and back to technical application of the pinans to real world fighting.

I'll PM you some details so as to keep this thread on the straight and narrow.

Sojobo

I appreciate both. Domo!

[Ueshirokarate]

Indeed, so I don't suspect that much of what I know from the Pinan kata will vary from what you know. Although I do always like talking about Naihanchi, I don't think we necessarily need a separate topic for Naihanchi--that would just start filling up the forum if we did a new topic for every kata we want to discuss. I should add that I think the idea of cataloging all of the different applications that people can think of is interesting, just so long as we aren't seeking one, single application for every movement.

Naihanchi Sho and the Pinans are really the only katas that are so ubiquitous. Not even Sanchin is as widespread as these katas, so I think it would only be two threads and there is so much material in the Pinans that I don't wish to muddy things up with Naihanchi on this thread. Besides, if there is one kata in the world that deserves its own thread, it would be Naihanch Sho.

[sojobo]

Ok You asked,

Here is a very interesting essay (that you've probably not read) abouth Naihanchi.

It is written by Tim Shaw a senior Wado sensei, but he also details some excellent history.

http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/introduction/introduction.html

[edit] be sure to click on the "next" at the bottom as it is several pages long.

Sojobo

[honoluludesktop]

......there isn't a pause there as such because the intent is continuous ........

You don't mean at the stop between the pair of shoto strikes, the position when stepping from the first shimata-dachi, to the other? But, the case when the pair of hands in shuto are backs facing each other, you are right of course, in the kata, the pause there is mental, not physical.

In the case of bunkai, if the opponent stands, there is no physical pause. If he advances or retreats, there may be a momentary pause to adjust ma-ai, and destroy the opponent's timing.

[sojobo]

shimata-dachi... wow, haven't heard that expression for a while

sojobo

[bushido_man96]

Wouldn't it be great if once and for all we could pick apart a kata and know exactly how to execute all the techniques in it in a fight? Would it be worth while if we picked one of the Pinan katas (since they seem to be so universal) and broke each move down until there was some majority opinion on each and every move? Some applications of kata are obvious, some are mysterious and it makes sense to me to put our collective heads together to figure them out.

On youtube, this Cannuck gives me a pretty good interpretation of Kata apps.

I rather like these. Pretty simple and short. Aside from the form showing the moves, why not just go right into partner training in the first place? That would be great, and much more productive in the end, I think.

I think there tends to be a misconception that the form has to come first, before the bunkai. I think learning them both right then and there can be very beneficial.