Rediscovering how to use kata moves in a fight.

[Ueshirokarate]

Wouldn't it be great if once and for all we could pick apart a kata and know exactly how to execute all the techniques in it in a fight? Would it be worth while if we picked one of the Pinan katas (since they seem to be so universal) and broke each move down until there was some majority opinion on each and every move? Some applications of kata are obvious, some are mysterious and it makes sense to me to put our collective heads together to figure them out.

[honoluludesktop]

There are people who teach this, but all their applications are modern interpretations. Kata was invented before written history, and its form has inevitably changed over time (everyone knows the lesson of 100 people standing in a circle, each whispering to the next in line a short story that was whispered to them. By the time the story gets back to the original person, it is often completely changed). The word bunkai, mean analysis, something the student is encouraged to apply to kata forms.

In addition, any particular interpretation would only work in a narrow range of conditions. Except for various forms of ipon kumite, most kata are practiced independently. Learning a defensive movement without a partner, limited to a single interpretation, has little value in the street. If your opponent comes at you at a different angle, with surprising timing or rhythm, striking in a manner you haven't practice defense against, you have little chance to apply your bunkai to the situation.

To create a reasonable performance of kata requires experience in some form of free fighting. Part of that experience includes hard contact, and toe to toe fighting. From fight experiences, the karateka gain the measure of distance, timing to hit, as well as the rhythm of a match. It is these experiences that are brought to kata that give it street relevance. There are some that do not care for free fighting. Properly practiced, ipon kumite is a partial substitute (but without contact, or randomness).

Some may question the value of a teacher since we must depend on our own experiences. A teacher provides the basics, drilling, and the opportunity to train with others. IMO however, the inner meaning of kata is not technique, and left for individuals to discover themselves.

[Ueshirokarate]

There are people who teach this, but all their applications are modern interpretations. Kata was invented before written history, and its form has inevitably changed over time (everyone knows the lesson of 100 people standing in a circle, each whispering to the next in line a short story that was whispered to them. By the time the story gets back to the original person, it is often completely changed). The word bunkai, mean analysis, something the student is encouraged to apply to kata forms.

In addition, any particular interpretation would only work in a narrow range of conditions. Except for various forms of ipon kumite, most kata are practiced independently. Learning a defensive movement without a partner, limited to a single interpretation, has little value in the street. If your opponent comes at you at a different angle, with surprising timing or rhythm, striking in a manner you haven't practice defense against, you have little chance to apply your bunkai to the situation.

To create a reasonable performance of kata requires experience in some form of free fighting. Part of that experience includes hard contact, and toe to toe fighting. From fight experiences, the karateka gain the measure of distance, timing to hit, as well as the rhythm of a match. It is these experiences that are brought to kata that give it street relevance. There are some that do not care for free fighting. Properly practiced, ipon kumite is a partial substitute (but without contact, or randomness).

Some may question the value of a teacher since we must depend on our own experiences. A teacher provides the basics, drilling, and the opportunity to train with others. IMO however, the inner meaning of kata is not technique, and left for individuals to discover themselves.

I disagree with a few things you say and I agree with some as well. Clearly you think what I suggested is not worth doing and obviously I disagree. I do not wish to get into a debate. If you wish to give your opinion on a particular move from a Pinan, feel free.

[honoluludesktop]

I am not disagreeing with you, just offering a perspective beyond technique (hammer fist, high block, etc.). Any effort to study kata in any manner is worthy. I too do not care to debate.

As for an opinion about a kata's move, it is as I have stated, regardless of the technique, it is the body movement preformed in consideration of the timing (as a function of distance), and rhythm found in fighting.

Take for example, any three step (more or less) forward movement in a kata. Each moment is an incremental, reflexive response to your opponent's intention. The kata provides the opportunity to practice the pauses (changes in direction, timing, etc.) that are learned in free fighting.

If you step forward in attack, it is in reflex to the imaginary opponent's defense. You do so until your attack overwhelms their defense. If you step forward in defense, it is in reflex to your opponent's attack. This is also done until your defense provides a opening to strike your opponent. This by itself is obvious. But to practice the movement (how to pause, etc.) that allows one to respond to their changing intent, is IMHO the benefit from executing the kata.

[Ueshirokarate]

I am not disagreeing with you, just offering a perspective beyond technique (hammer fist, high block, etc.). Any effort to study kata in any manner is worthy. I too do not care to debate.

As for an opinion about a kata's move, it is as I have stated, regardless of the technique, it is the body movement preformed in consideration of the timing (as a function of distance), and rhythm found in fighting.

Take for example, any three step (more or less) forward movement in a kata. Each moment is an incremental, reflexive response to your opponent's intention. The kata provides the opportunity to practice the pauses (changes in direction, timing, etc.) that are learned in free fighting.

If you step forward in attack, it is in reflex to the imaginary opponent's defense. You do so until your attack overwhelms their defense. If you step forward in defense, it is in reflex to your opponent's attack. This is also done until your defense provides a opening to strike your opponent. This by itself is obvious. But to practice the movement (how to pause, etc.) that allows one to respond to their changing intent, is IMHO the benefit from executing the kata.

Not really what I was looking for on the thread. Perhaps you should start another thread?

[honoluludesktop]

If you wish to give your opinion on a particular move from a Pinan, feel free.

No, I only responded because you asked me to. Perhaps you could provided an example so that like minded people could respond.

Edited July 25, 2011 by honoluludesktop

[Kuma]

Check out the book "Five Years One Kata" by Bill Burgar.

[Ueshirokarate]

Check out the book "Five Years One Kata" by Bill Burgar.

Thanks for the suggestion. It looks like a book on this exact subject.

[Ueshirokarate]

If you wish to give your opinion on a particular move from a Pinan, feel free.

No, I only responded because you asked me to. Perhaps you could provided an example so that like minded people could respond.

Consider the techniques delivered in zenkutsu dachi. It is completely impractical in any kind of real life strike fight. My belief is that it trains your body to throw and is purely for grappling.

[SavageOne]

Kata, needs the attack to be very specific.. remember in a conflict there are no straight punches unless its a jab for distance check....use what works and stop looking for a set piece of movements. teach yourself instead to look for an opening that will, destroy a joint or take out your threat.